Brittany - on leaving an extremist religious community

Jul 30

Raised in an extremist religious community within the United States, Brittany, the youngest of 11 children, recounts her story of navigating her aspirations for freedom against the backdrop of an intensely oppressive and neglectful upbringing and how she mustered the courage to break free.

Brittany 0:00
I would say that pronatalism defined my entire existence and still does, because maybe if it wasn't about quantity, it could be a little bit more about quality. And I would have actually had parents who knew where I was or what I was doing or cared about what I wanted. But that wasn't the focus. I was born after 10 other kids, it doesn't matter how those kids live, it just matters that you have those kids. So leaving just defined the entire trajectory of my life. And not just because I don't have to follow the rules. It's about every single thing that I do. And I kind of thought what would it be like if I thought to go to school and learn things that I'm interested about; I really wanted to learn that I wasn't allowed to go to the library; I wasn't allowed to read books. And I started thinking, I was given a brain, but I'm not allowed to use it.
Nandita Bajaj 0:59
That was today's guest, Brittany. Hello, everyone. And thank you for joining me on this journey. My name is Nandita Bajaj, and I'm the host of Beyond Pronatalism: Finding Fulfillment, With or Without Kids, an interview series in which, through intimate conversations with women and men from diverse backgrounds, I explore how they are courageously and creatively navigating pronatalism - the often unspoken pressures to have children, whether from family, friends, or the culture at large. In each episode, I dive into personal stories with people who are forging unconventional pathways to fulfillment, including redefining what family means to them - whether that means being childfree, or childless, having biological kids, adopting or fostering children or animals, or creating close-knit communities of friends and loved ones. Hi Brittany, welcome to the podcast. It is so lovely to have you here.
Brittany 1:59
Thanks so much. I'm really excited to be able to share this with some other people that might have similar experiences or want to learn more about other issues.
Nandita Bajaj 2:09
And your story is a really powerful one. And I'm sure that our listeners will appreciate both your personal experience and the cultural insights that you will share with them. So let's begin by talking a little bit about your upbringing within your particular community, which I know is quite a unique situation. So if you can unpack that a little bit for us.
Brittany 2:34
Yes, it is pretty unique. So firstly, I guess, my name is Brittany - that is my chosen name, and it took a long time to become that person and take on that name, which is a example of my journey and what it's like growing up in that community and then trying to transform into the person you actually want to be. In regard to my community, there's different ways to explain it, I guess, for people who have left they use kind of different languages. For me, I think of it as an extremist community based on religion, some of the other things that people who have left refer to it as is a cult. But I am hesitant to use that word specifically, because the definition of a cult is generally that there's one specific leader that exercises control; whereas this is a lot more diverse in that it's your parents. It is the religious leaders, but it's also your friends. It comes at you really from all sides in a way that is not very defined. But then again, there are different sects within this huge umbrella religion that will define things differently and really make you have a different experience. So yeah, I would say it's an extremist religion without physical boundaries that will show up in different countries and different states, different areas like cities, more rural areas. I personally, I grew up in a city within the US. So I had very physical proximity to everything on the other side. And yet, I didn't know basic things at all.
Nandita Bajaj 4:16
Thank you for sharing that. I think a lot of people are familiar with these communities around the world. I think a lot of people will have experienced growing up within communities like these. And that's why I feel like your experience is so helpful, because people can identify what it feels like to be a part of it, and then to not be a part of it. So you talked about leaving the community or people who have left. Tell us a little bit about your upbringing in terms of the messages that you received, especially in terms of specific gendered roles that you were expected to fulfill.
Brittany 4:59
Sure. So I wouldn't say that there was a specific age or time or delineating event that made me leave or rethink my ideas. It was a slow process. And there were maybe glimpses of ideas that kind of came into my mind or something that I saw as a child. But I never thought of it as that's something that I'm going to act on. It was more like a thought that I had, and sometimes a bad thought that I had. But it was definitely not something I would focus on, because I didn't want to become that person or a kid with problems - someone who is going to have a really hard time finding a potential match and settling down. That was like a big fear looming over childhood, but more, I would say, adolescent, teenage years. Yeah, that was definitely like an overshadowing thing, particularly in my family, because we didn't have the most prestigious position in the community. And so that kind of affects who you get to marry. That's also based on financial standing, as well as your devotion. So definitely my family was extreme in the devotion aspect, but because we had such a big family - I'm one of 11 and I'm the youngest - there was not much to go around, let alone be visible to other people.
And that is, in addition to a really big fear of mentioning where I come from, because of what we were so indoctrinated our whole life that if we are in the outside world, everyone will hate us. We will fail. And so I definitely still have that fear. And I am still grappling with whether that is a realistic fear or not. But when I lived there, it was our own world within general society, I guess, to which we didn't really have access because of the psychological fear. So we lived on the same street as people who weren't like us, but never would I be caught talking to them. And I didn't try to talk to them, because I was a really good girl. And I was proud of being a really good girl. So I might have seen what the neighbors were doing, but in no way was it a reality for me. The smells of their cooking, walking down the street, there were comments about that, like from my family. Oh, that smells so weird. Because of the food we ate. Whatever we ate had to be, according to the laws and typical, so anything as small as that was not to be really spoken of. And as kids we only played with people from the community. We only talked about things that had to do with either what we were supposed to be or what we wanted to be. And all of that was really dictated by what we were taught.
Nandita Bajaj 7:52
And what was the education situation like? Would you attend schools with children from the same community?
Brittany 8:01
Yes, a hundred percent. So that is a defining factor of your family and your status - where your children go, because different schools have different levels of religion. There are some things that are the same across the board for anyone who is in this community and not on a fringe community. So some things about that would be having only-girl schools, and the curriculum between what girls and boys are taught is completely different.
So I guess, for example, when I would go to school, I would leave the house around eightish, but then only learn religious studies until lunchtime. And then after that, we would have some general studies that would include basic things as a kid, but then as you grow older it doesn't really measure up that much. So we would learn like math, science, history, but it was all what they wanted to include in that lesson. And whatever we learned after lunchtime wasn't really as important. The focus was always on doing better on the religious studies. Personally, I always preferred the afternoon, just because it was more interesting to me. There's different things to learn, as opposed to deeper things to learn. But I guess for boys, so for my dad, he did about half a year of first grade. And after that, it was only religious studies. But he grew up, I guess, a generation before me. And now there's a lot of pressure from the outside - I guess, government regulations, Department of Education, and some people who left - that try to bring awareness to this issue. So things have changed in some communities within some schools. But there's definitely not the educational opportunity for anyone in the community that comes close to a public school.
Nandita Bajaj 9:57
Right. So how does it manage to stay outside of what's required from government regulation?
Brittany 10:05
So I'm not that familiar with politics and things that were intentionally hidden from us. However, from my perspective, the local government and Department of Education don't really want to get involved in a pretty small percentage. So it's pretty easy to get away with just denying people an education, We were taught exactly the bare minimum in order to like pass certain tests. But that was it. And for preparation of those, like, we weren't really allowed to learn about reproduction. So before the test, they taught us enough to be able to answer the test. But then there was a question about evolution. And they said to us, that if there's this question on the exam, you're not allowed to answer it. So you're just going to lose the points.
Nandita Bajaj 10:51
Interesting. And since you bring up reproduction, and this podcast is about understanding the impacts of pronatalism - the societal, religious, institutional pressures to have children - how did pronatalism show up in subtle or overt ways within the community? I mean, to me, there's a clear connection here, the fact that they don't want you to learn about reproduction, meaning lack of understanding or autonomy around some of the most important decisions we would make. What was that like?
Brittany 11:31
Yeah, I think that's a good time to talk about that, because it keeps the theme of education. So within formal education there's a lot, and that is compounded by familial expectations. So I guess, let's talk about formal education first. From when you enter any sort of kindergarten, nursery, babysitting, it's already controlled, because the projects that you do, for example, will be like making a craft about one of the holidays, and you could be making a woman dressed a certain way, doing a certain task for the holiday. Or there will be a boy doing a certain thing that's only for boys to do, because that commandment is only for them. So it's very evident, from literally when you start talking. And then starting in, I don't know, maybe like five years old, they would make mock weddings and kids would dress up as the bride or groom and they will do the whole situation, which looking back is really sad and also really comical. Because you look at these pictures of four year olds, you know, dressed up and it's just, it doesn't make any sense.
Nandita Bajaj 12:40
That is sad. It's like pathway's set for you before you're even like learning how to have an imagination.
Brittany 12:48
Yeah, and it's very disjointed. Because you do this in a classroom, but there aren't really any boys. It's just very imaginative in the sense that there's no process. It's very individualized. So like, your rite of passage as a girl will be one thing, and it doesn't involve any one of the other gender.
Nandita Bajaj 13:06
And what kind of pronatalist messages were you receiving other than marriage?
Brittany 13:12
I think it was just the absolute expectation. it was just the reality of life that nobody would question. Like almost all of us, came from really large families. And if you didn't, it was pitiful. I know within my extended family, which was massive, most people had more than six kids. So going into a typical house, you would just see so many backpacks and baby stuff, and for every age. That was just how you lived. There would literally be like circles of women praying for people who couldn't have children. Like if you didn't have a child within one year of your marriage, that's already considered like, what is going on? What's wrong with them? Like a lot of hushed whispers, a lot of praying. So, once I did learn about,, having a certain amount of children, it's still not okay. You have to get permission from one of the leaders and have a - according to them - valid reason for that, which might include not being mentally fit to mother more children, which is really awful. And my neighbors only had I think, five kids. And I used to hang out there a lot because their house was so much calmer. And at one point, I don't remember how old I was, I started thinking, I want to have a family like them. And then as I got older, I started thinking I wanted to have less and less kids.
Nandita Bajaj 14:34
Right. And I know it's probably a silly question, but did anyone choose to not have children?
Brittany 14:40
It's not a silly question. It's just really unanswerable, because I would have no knowledge of that. Like, when I said that I wanted to have less kids, I didn't tell anyone that. I might have once mentioned it to my sister that I wanted to have six kids, but even then, just the reaction and the energy I got about that, like, I never would mention that ever again. So like, there's no way to know that.
But it was very much God decides how many children, and the more devout or holy you are the more children you'll will be blessed with - that was told to us a lot - that you don't know whether something's a punishment from God or an opportunity to grow, or the ancestors that this family needs to repent for. And that applied to children, but it applied to everything as well. If you had no kids, like when they have to go to weddings and stuff, very embarrasing for them. The way I understood it was that, if you didn't have kids, why were you even born, because you had no impact. No one's going to be named after you.
Nandita Bajaj 15:40
You said you were starting to have thoughts and it was a slow process, where you were realizing that you needed some things to be different. What did it look like for you to navigate these pressures from within the community? And how did you come to the final decision of parting ways?
Brittany 16:01
I think there were some really key moments looking back. Like when I think of my younger years, I would say under 10 years old, there were even times I felt like I just don't want to be part of this. But I never actively thought I would do that. I was very involved with helping out with my nieces and nephews, like that was my life. It was kind of my escape from everything else, you know, and I was pretty good at it. Like I would pick up a baby and get them to stop crying. I would go to my sibling's house, which is obviously complete chaos, because they were well on their way to have 11 children too. So I missed school, went to a different city, to help my sibling out, and then only got told that I wasn't doing enough or helping enough. So at one point, I was walking down the street, and it was a downhill road. I just kept feeling like I just want to fall down and roll down this hill. So that's like a memory. I think that started it. And then a couple years later, I heard that Harvard existed. And I didn't really learn anything about it. I just heard it in passing that, you know, that's the best school. And I kind of thought, what would it be like if I thought to go to school and learn things that I'm interested about? Because that did come up like a few times. I really wanted to learn, but I wasn't allowed to go to the library, wasn't allowed to read books. And I started thinking like, I was given a brain, but I'm not allowed to use it. So I don't really understand that. So then I skipped a couple grades. But it didn't help. I felt the same way. And then there was also time that I was standing in my bedroom and looking out of the blinds. So no one could see me, but I could see the world and it was dark. And I was just seeing all the city lights and imagining like what's behind there. And at the time, I didn't think of it like, I'm gonna leave one day, I just thought of like, I'm here, and there's something out there. So yeah, those were like my younger years, I was always a good kid. But when I was going into puberty, I started, I guess, like everyone, just, you know, thinks about stuff. But I was getting really depressed and secluded. And so I felt like that was because I wasn't doing enough - not making God happy, not being close enough to God, not being good enough to my parents. And so that really wore me down. And as the years progressed, I just started feeling like nothing I did was good enough. And I did a lot. I did a whole lot, because I was trying so hard to prove to myself that I was good, and that if I only took on another stringency I would feel different. I would feel what I'm supposed to feel, which is closeness and just validation that I mean something and that what I'm doing means something, but that never really happened. And I actually went to study abroad in a very similar community where there's this dichotomy of being really good, but also being a threat. And both of those kinds of people would go there. And somehow I was both of those people in one, which I suspect a lot of the kids who went there were like. And even though I flew on a plane, I went so far away, it was the same., I would never do anything on the way there. I didn't eat the food on the plane. I didn't stop anywhere on the way I just, my parents dropped me off. I went on the plane. I got there. And then there was surveillance 24/7. But at the same time, like I saw things that were different, you know. I saw billboards. I... and there were other people there that were also kind of going in the other direction. And then I didn't think I would be like them. No one thought I would be like them. But I guess that started brewing. But I tried very hard to suppress it. And I was like, I'm never going to be that person. And during the transition of like, leaving the community, I had a roommate, which is a whole thing in its own, because you don't do that if you ever want to get married. And so I was living in the same place as her. And she had said something because she came from a less religious family to me, and she's like, Do you think you would leave? And I was like, I'm way too old to leave.That doesn't happen.
Nandita Bajaj 20:08
And how old were you?
Brittany 20:09
Maybe 19.
Nandita Bajaj 20:12
And then you decided to do it shortly after?
Brittany 20:15
When I think about it, I think more that I was pushed out. And they would highly disagree, because that wasn't their intention in any way. But I wanted to go to college. I also didn't get married off at 18. And I think that is the main reason that I'm where I am today. Because it was very coveted to like, get a match right away. But I was already like showing signs of distress. I wasn't showing that I was not a good potential for a wife. But I was very deep in my own head and thoughts and contemplative. And I think that makes it a little harder. Even my parents were kind of like, you should get a little bit help if you want to settle down and have a good marriage.
Nandita Bajaj 20:59
Like, don't be so smart.
Brittany 21:00
Yeah, yeah, I guess that's kind of what it was. I mean it was very valued to be smart, especially within my family. There was a lot of competition. And there were a lot of brain cells going around. But it was more about what you did with that, you know, Yes, be smart, but don't try to outsmart people who have been doing this for centuries. And there's no arguing with like, what the knowledge that already stands.
Nandita Bajaj 21:25
That makes sense. I mean, I can relate to that. In my own culture, smartness is valued. But as long as it's done in moderation in acceptable levels, so you can still make a good wife and a good mother. People can tell what degrees you have, as long as you don't go and use them somewhere.
Brittany 21:44
You gotta, you gotta be smart, and leverage that in order to keep other people in the community is kind of how it was.
Nandita Bajaj 21:52
Right. Yes, that makes sense. And so, in navigating all of this and deciding to eventually leave, tell me a bit about what that was like, the process of actually leaving and finding yourself and where you're at with things right now.
Brittany 22:11
So if I had to give an exact age, I would say it would be 19, when I significantly made it aware that I am going to pursue things that interest me and decided to go to college. That was, I would say, like a hard line. So my mom wouldn't really communicate with me directly, which is also I think, kind of like a cultural thing. It's more like passive. so I found this newspaper clipping on my bed about a girl who went to college, and then stopped praying, and how, how sad it was and how she struggled to come back. Obviously, you know, it's a publication from within the community. That's the only thing you're allowed to read. But that kind of made me angry, and made me want to do it more. And then I chose to go to a school that was in partnership with the community so that they could redact whatever information they want and choose the topics that we study. I went there. Not only was it not appreciated or approved of, she was still like, driving me crazy about it. And a little bit after that I moved out. My dad was a little bit cooler about it, but I just couldn't take it anymore. I was not at the point that I would just pick up and go into the world at all. So I was trying to find people who lived out of town and came to our bigger city in order so that they could get married and find a guy to marry. So even for them, it was a little bit not a good mark for the matchmakers. So I was trying to find people like that to live with. there was a couple girls sharing a basement somewhere. And I met them. Apparently, I wasn't good enough to live there, because maybe they saw that I was too progressive from them. But one of them was like, if you would live here, you absolutely can never bring anyone over or tell anyone that I live here, because no one's allowed to know that I don't live with my parents, or I'll never get married. And then I moved in with this one girl who, like I said, was from out of town and a little bit less indoctrinated. And that kind of also opened up for me. I got a phone. That was like the first time I went on the internet.I barely ever watched anything, or did anything online, except if it was really to do at school. So I think a huge turning point is that I started going to a yoga studio., And I started going there almost daily. And that became like a refuge from the community, because in that room no one really saw me. But yeah, I started like talking to people there. And once in a while they wanted to meet up afterwards. So I think that was a bridge.
Nandita Bajaj 24:44
Right. You were starting to see a different way of being, and maybe imagining a different life for yourself as you were talking to some people outside of your community.
Brittany 24:54
Yeah. And then after that, very quickly, I went backpacking all over. And the crazy part is that I was on the other side of the world, and they were completely controlling me. I didn't eat anything for a while. I did change the way I dressed and started going by Brittany. But most of the long trip, I basically starved.
It was me alone with my backpack in the most far-flung places, not eating stuff, not doing things that I wasn't supposed to do on holidays.
Nandita Bajaj 25:26
And even though you had physically escaped, in a way, you were still psychologically trapped within those same rules, and you were preventing yourself from doing things that you needed to survive, let alone thrive.
Brittany 25:42
There’s not a day that I don't think about it. And it's been six years. Some days I think about it, and I feel guilty. But some days I think about it, and I laugh. Some days I think about it, and I'm proud. But it's definitely there every day.
Nandita Bajaj 25:56
And once you truly left the community, which you said, you were not even sure at the beginning, whether you've left or not left - were there any repercussions to that? To your own independence? Your own freedom from the community,
Brittany 26:13
I would say I had it really lucky, because my family still talks to me. I can't talk to their kids, because I'm a bad influence, or just by virtue of words I use or what I'm wearing or my haircut. But I had it lucky because they still talk to me. But that had kind of changed in the past 20 years, when they realized that in order to keep people in the community, they can't make their lives more miserable once they leave. So in some sense, you get nicer treatment once you leave, but at the same time, you're evil and sick and needing help.
Nandita Bajaj 26:47
How has that affected you, being free from some of those rules, especially as it relates to pronatalism?
Brittany 26:54
I would say that pronatalism defined my entire existence and still does, because maybe if it wasn't about quantity, it could be a little bit more about quality. And I would have actually had parents who knew where I was or what I was doing or cared about what I wanted. But that wasn't the focus. I was born after 10 other kids, and it was so wonderful that they had me after a four year gap. But it doesn't matter how those kids live. It just matters that you have those kids. So leaving just defined the entire trajectory of my life, and not just because I don't have to follow the rules. It's about every single thing that I do. I don't have to shop at a certain store or support my husband or spend my whole day cooking or changing diapers, you know. And after I left, I kind of still wanted to have kids. I wanted to prove that we could have a happy family that lives outside of the community. So that definitely, like, changed over the years. But yeah, at one point that was like my entire focus and desire, was to be a mother and have kids. And it's very much spoken of in the areas where girls are having questions or struggling. And when I was at school, I actually went and talked to one of the teachers because I was, I was really not okay. And what he said to me was, Don't worry, your husband will tame you.
Nandita Bajaj 28:24
Wow.
Brittany 28:24
It was funny at the time, because I think I was saying something about how I have so many ideas. And I'm, I guess to the tune of like, it's chaotic. And so, No, you'll get married, you'll have a purpose, you'll be fine. So yeah, that was kind of crazy. And, on some level, I really, I didn't want to just get married and have kids and not be able to learn or exercise my brain or anything else. But it was also like the thing I wanted most in the world, because that was my ticket out of my misery. That was another chance at mattering, having a purpose. And I thought it would just be so terrible and miserable if my nieces got ahead of me, and got married before me. Like I wouldn't be able to exist, because my niece is two years younger than me. And there's been some kind of competition, even though I was the one who took care of her originally, but she had it better off than me for some reason. And so I always thought that would be tragic. But by the time that happened, I was already starting to leave. And so I went to her wedding, but she was the first and last of all the grandchildren, which are probably, I don't know, between 50 and 100 right now, and after that it was just like such a relief. It was like the other end of everything. Like for years, I obsessed and was worried and prayed about that she wouldn't get married before me. And if that would have happened, I would probably still be there. And that's another thing like where I am today. There are times where I could sit there and just be crying because I think if I hadn't left I might be happier. Because if I would have just listened to the rules, I would at least have someone in the world who knows where I am or who will know if I die. Living out here is just you lose everything. You lose your family, your purpose, your identity. And yes, I'm so happy that I'm not living that traditional, awfully constricted, conservative, controlled life that comes with that. But there's definitely a huge grief and loss and doubt.
Nandita Bajaj 30:23
And that sense of belonging is such a huge part of our existence is we want to be part of our tribe. And the interesting part about your journey is like leaving a tribe because of its restrictive prohibitive rules to go and find freedom, but not yet having found another tribe where your independence and your individual needs and desires are valued and loved, and to still be able to share that connection that you did have with your own tribe.
Brittany 31:00
I wouldn't say I did. I would say my life was extremely isolated even though I was always surrounded by family and kids and, but I didn't know what love was. No one ever said that to me. There was no physical affection. There was no verbal affection. I could count on one hand the times that I had that from my parents and so part of it is like you get married, you make your own family, you have that chance. But I couldn't last any longer until that happened. And now I'm lucky. But you know about saying about finding a tribe, I have so much doubt and resistance to that. I don't want to trust people or be in a relationship, because that comes with rules and expectations. And I don't want to go back there. So I don't know where I'm at most days, I find it really hard to think that that person is this person, like they're two separate people completely in my head.
Nandita Bajaj 31:50
And that's a tough position to be in, to not really be grounded. In some ways, it can be a very freeing position, because you're not tied down to some of the worst parts of that community. But then also, such a huge part of our identity is groundedness. You're grounded in something, some values, some meaning that you've bought into or created for yourself. And it sounds like you're in the in-between place where you're still trying to find out who you are, what grounds you.
Brittany 32:23
If I had to choose something that grounds me, I would say it's my curiosity and resourcefulness, because I've changed things so many times from when I left. I've been so many people. I've been so many places. I've tried so many things. And that is what made this worth it. And the potential of what I might do with all this time and energy. Because yes, it is definitely like floating in the atmosphere, living in a glass bubble. But there's so much that I don't know, and that's what is exciting to me. And that's a huge part of why I left - is the unknown; to just never know, to be curious and to be able to pursue it.
Nandita Bajaj 33:02
Right, which is beautiful, and a complete antidote to all the rules that you need to know which are very, very finite and limited, right? You're not allowed to go beyond the boundaries of those rules. So I can understand and relate to the freedom that comes with embracing the unknown.
Brittany 33:21
Yeah, it was kind of morbid, like, just thinking - I don't know when I had this thought but I did at some point - that you're born in the same place on the same land. You live there. You go to school. You shop there. You have your babies there. And then you die there. And you're buried there. Like that's your whole life. I am so relieved that I don't have to deal with things that I'm not ready to take responsibility for. And I don't want to repeat anything that happened to me. And the first thing I want to do for a long time is just like, be okay in myself and my choices and get something out of my efforts. And that's not fair to myself, or to a future child to have to,live with more limited resources, because to start with, I have very limited resources. And I think that ability to have this knowledge, to make this informed decision is just so valuable, and so freeing. And, because of all this, I am able to explore the fact that there's not only us. There's not only humans that this whole place exists for. And I can explore that without it being like a wasteless pursuit of you know, like that there's no purpose to anything that you study that doesn't directly relate to perpetuating human existence.
Nandita Bajaj 34:45
That sounds amazing. That's a really great answer. Brittany, thank you so much for taking the time to join me today. This was a really powerful and impactful interview. I've learned so much from you. I knew when I met you and heard your story that this story needed to be told. Thanks for doing all the work that you're doing in finding your own path. All the very best with that and also for the new grooves that you're creating for people like you who are struggling to find their own path and who will find inspiration from it.
Brittany 35:21
Thanks so much. Yeah, I was so excited to come across these terms like pronatalism, like human supremacy, because I thought these ideas in my head, but they were crazy ideas and and finding the words to that is just like, wow, not only does someone else think like me, it's actually an important thing. So I appreciate it.
Nandita Bajaj 35:41
Awesome. Thanks so much. That's all for today's episode. Thank you so much for listening. What did you think of this episode? Do you have your own story you'd like to share? Check out the show notes to see how you can get in touch with me. Whether you'd like to share feedback about the show or a particular episode, or whether you'd like to join me on the show to share your own story, I'd love to hear from you. Thank you so much again for joining me today as we collectively discover and celebrate the many different pathways to fulfillment beyond pronatalism. Beyond pronatalism is brought to you by Population Balance - the only nonprofit organization advancing ecological and reproductive justice by confronting pronatalism. This podcast is produced and hosted by me, Nandita Bajaj, with the support of my production team: Josh Wild, Elizabeth Strunk, Alan Ware, and Kirsten Stade.