Are Children and Future Generations Being Betrayed?
Physician turned documentarian Sofia Pineda Ochoa explains why she is taking our society to task for ignoring the peril of human overpopulation. Habitat destruction, species extinction, and animal agriculture top the list of topics. Human numbers are the root of the problem. “Can’t we talk about something that’s so obvious and undeniable?” asks Ochoa.
Co-host Nandita Bajaj also shares a name change and updated mission, plus a new tag line, “shrink toward abundance.” World Population Balance is now Population Balance, and the web address is now populationbalance.org. Also, we announce that co-host Dave Gardner is leaving the podcast. Listen in for all the details.
MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE:
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Dave Gardner 0:00
Were you aware the world's present and future children are being betrayed?
Nandita Bajaj 0:04
Shall we count the ways?
Dave Gardner 0:06
You're right, there are several. But our guest on this episode has said, "Ignoring our human population growth is one of the greatest environmental and humanitarian betrayals of all time." We'll touch on several acts of betrayal, plus the big one, as we visit with physician and producer of the documentary, Endgame 2050, Sofia Pineda Ochoa, next.
Dave Gardner 0:10
This is it, the Overpopulation Podcast, tirelessly working to make overshoot and overpopulation common knowledge. That's the first step in right sizing the scale of the human enterprise at a level in sustainable balance with nature. I'm co-host, Dave Gardner.
Nandita Bajaj 0:57
And I'm Nandita Bajaj, co-host and Executive Director of Population Balance, an organization that boldly takes a stand on why human overpopulation and overconsumption are devastating our planet and the many positive ways in which we can help address that.
Dave Gardner 1:13
Learn more at populationbalance.org.
Nandita Bajaj 1:16
We're going to have a great conversation with Sofia Pineda Ochoa, but first we have a couple of new items.
Dave Gardner 1:23
Do tell.
Nandita Bajaj 1:24
Yeah Dave, we are so thrilled to announce some exciting new changes we have made to World Population Balance. We've been working hard over the past three months, with input from our staff and our board of directors, to evolve our direction. Of course, the work that's gone into World Population Balance over the last twenty-nine years under your leadership, and under Dave Paxson's leadership, we are building on the incredible work that has gone on, and changing our mission and vision just to reflect our evolving direction. First of all, World Population Balance is now Population Balance. So we've dropped the world from the organization.
Dave Gardner 2:08
You've dropped to the world? I hope it doesn't break!
Nandita Bajaj 2:12
But definitely not the global focus of the issue. It's just simpler.
Dave Gardner 2:17
Well, I know that the email address was just way too damn long. That's for sure. So I'm glad to have shorter email addresses.
Nandita Bajaj 2:24
Rolls off the tongue a little more easily. PB and J. So I'll quickly read, I'm not going to read fully, but I'll just give a quick overview of our new vision. Our vision is: we envision a future where our human footprint is in balance with life on Earth, enabling all species to thrive. And our mission is to educate about and offer solutions to address the impacts of human overpopulation and overconsumption on the planet, people, and animals. There's a bunch of ways in which we are proposing to address this mission. And the three things that we're focusing are: challenging pronatalism, which we've discussed, you know, are the social pressures to have children, challenging anthropocentrism, which is this worldview that we have dominion over nature and all the beings, and then also challenging growthist political and economic systems, which you've been doing such an incredible job addressing over the last decade and a half. We also have a new tagline, Shrink Toward Abundance. And this one, it has a double meaning - we're going for both our personal, ecological footprint reduction so that we can experience simplicity and personal abundance, but also talking about shrinking our human population footprint so that we can allow an abundant Earth for all life. Anyway, that was some of the bigger changes. But if folks wanted to check out our new website, it's populationbalanced.org. And that's it. Would love to hear your feedback, if you have any.
Dave Gardner 4:15
Well, I have a little bit. You've been on the job four months, what took you so long? You have got to start getting more sleep. That is an incredible amount of work to have accomplished. It's a good thing that you were able to stand on my shoulders.
Nandita Bajaj 4:29
That is 100% true, Dave, and you know that.
Dave Gardner 4:34
Yeah, it's definitely worth taking a look, it's, the evolution continues and it's kind of nice that we don't have to wait nearly as long for evolution in this case. So good work. Nice work.
Nandita Bajaj 4:43
Thank you.
Dave Gardner 4:44
Let's see, what else, you have any other news?
Nandita Bajaj 4:47
We also are excited to welcome a new board of advisors, and today's special guest, Sofia, is actually one of the eight, and you can check out the others on our website.
Dave Gardner 4:59
Very good. Also, I really want to give you a shout out, Nandita. You were interviewed recently by the Institute for Humane Education, and what a great interview that is. We'll be sure and put a link in the show notes so that our listeners can check that out. Firm evidence that you will be a very articulate and brilliant spokesperson for the cause. So thanks for that.
Dave Gardner 5:20
Thank you, Dave. Yeah, it really helped that Zoe Weil, the Founder and President of the Institute for Humane Education, has leanings towards overpopulation concern. And so, you know, she's been really welcoming of this new message. And I was thrilled that she gave me this opportunity to speak about overpopulation in a way that really lines up well with humane education and the work that I'm trying to bring to Population Balance.
Dave Gardner 7:06
That's great. Shout out to Zoe as well for that. So it's called We Need to Talk About Overpopulation: An Interview with Nandita Bajaj, link in the show notes. Last bit of news is that this will be my swan song. This is the last episode of the Overpopulation Podcast in which Dave Gardner is officially a co-host.
Nandita Bajaj 7:24
Dave.
Dave Gardner 7:24
Boo hoo.
Nandita Bajaj 7:26
Was it the Shrink Toward Abundance tagline that did it?
Dave Gardner 6:16
I've struggled with that abundance thing, but you're using it well, so no, that wasn't it. Thanks for that. You know, I've been telling everyone I'm not going away, I'm not disappearing. Certainly not disappearing from the cause. And I thought I would be continuing the podcast far longer, for another year or two, or five, because I really enjoy doing it. But what I found is that I haven't managed to lighten my load enough. And my poor Growth Busters project, which has been ignored way too much for the past six years since I took on the leadership of World Population Balance. It needs a little bit more of my attention. I'm still trying to get weekends off, so it's really more of a personal decision to lighten my load. And then it really is important for me to make sure that I leave lots of room for the next generation to do your thing. You know, I've gotten plenty of chance to mouth off. I've gotten to mouth off for what, sixty-five episodes of the Overpopulation Podcast, so I don't think people necessarily need to hear more from me. I really want them to hear from more from you, so I really, my sincere hope is that the Overpopulation Podcast continues, and I will make this offer too - if you ever want to invite me back as a guest co-host or a guest once in a while, I would be glad to pop back in every once in a while.
Nandita Bajaj 7:34
Well, thank you for that Dave. And I have to emphasize how sad I was to hear about your decision to leave. But I totally understand that you are also eager to serve the other needs for Growth Busters. I have to say, if I haven't said that enough, that listening to your podcasts over all these years were truly a source of sanity, relief, humor, you know, when everything else around me was mired in greed and materialism. And, you know, you are just such a gifted podcaster. And your episodes, I have found, you know, not to be just educational, but also a form of advocacy, where you aren't afraid to call out organizations that were in denial of this issue. And that's what really I admired about the Overpopulation Podcast is the bold, courageous message peppered in with your incredible humor. I am so much gonna miss working with you. And, you know, it really is because of you that I ended up here at World Population Balance. It was what, about ten months ago when we first had our chat, which ended up going on for an hour because we had so much to talk about sustainability. And then a few days later, you asked me if I could fill in for Erica, who couldn't make it as the co-host, and it was such an incredible honor to have been asked, and then to have been your co-host for these past eight months. To answer your question, the podcast is not going anywhere. I am not going to let it. It is such a gem, and the staff and I will make sure that it's able to survive your departure. And we will do the very best we can to keep it going.
Dave Gardner 7:34
Well damn, I'm sorry to hear I'm not irreplaceable. No, thank you. Those are really very kind words, and gosh, I wish I could find a way. I really do. Because I think we were a great team. You stepped into that role and really, I think Bajaj and Gardner will go down in history next to Abbott and Costello, Laurel and Hardy. Biden and Harris. Who else? I'm trying to think of some good duos.
Nandita Bajaj 10:03
We're so modest.
Dave Gardner 10:06
Lucille and Desi. Anyway, it's been a real pleasure. So it'll be really fun to see what you do, and you're bound to do great things without me being an anchor around your neck. Enough of the preliminaries, shall we get with Sofia?
Nandita Bajaj 10:21
Let's do it. So excited. She is a powerhouse of energy and I can't wait to talk to her.
Dave Gardner 10:27
Sofia Pineda Ochoa is a US based physician originally from Mexico. And most importantly, she's the producer of a really great documentary called Endgame 2050, which was released in 2020. But she's also co-founder of an organization called Meat Your Future, that's a nonprofit dedicated to providing information about the health, environmental, and ethical implications of using and consuming animals. That nonprofit, her documentary, and several recent videos fearlessly highlight the prominent role human overpopulation plays in mistreatment of animals, and destruction of our life supporting ecosystems. So Sofia, we really want to talk to you, we're really glad to have you.
Sofia Pineda Ochoa 11:14
Well, I'm so glad to talk to you. You guys are my heroes, so I'm the happy one to talk to you guys today. So thank you for having me here.
Dave Gardner 11:22
It's a two way relationship.
Nandita Bajaj 11:23
It truly is. We belong to a mutual admiration society here.
Dave Gardner 11:29
There's gonna be some real meat in this conversation, which isn't something you usually see on the dinner table, right?
Sofia Pineda Ochoa 11:33
I don't consume any meat, I haven't for many years, or animal products, or fish or dairy, so. But we can use the figurative word of meat on the conversation, I'm, I'm fine with that.
Nandita Bajaj 11:43
And on that note too, Sofia, you founded an organization that they've just mentioned, Meat Your Future with the spelling being M E A T. Wonderful name. So, you know, I'd love to hear your journey. What was the purpose of starting this organization? And how you came upon doing that?
Sofia Pineda Ochoa 12:05
Well, that's very kind of you, Nandita. And, first of all, you know, it's funny like, it is an organization, like it's a registered nonprofit, but like, it's basically just me and Bob, my partner, and we just do video content. And just the purpose is pretty simple, I mean, it's just to raise awareness. Because there's some very important and sometimes even like problematic things that I think people should be aware of more and that just don't bubble up to the surface like they should. And it's just a very, very humble attempt at like trying to, you know, raise awareness in some of those issues.
Dave Gardner 12:41
We'll put a link in the show notes to the organization's website, astonished that there aren't hundreds and hundreds of employees working behind the scenes. But isn't that the way on some of these really vital causes? It's really a pretty small group. A little bit like Population Balance, huh?
Sofia Pineda Ochoa 12:57
Yeah. You know, it's you guys, and you know what like, it's sometimes it's not a very popular message, you know? And, you know, and by the way, it may be changing the name of it to Endgame 2050 in the future. You know, its purpose was only to highlight things with regards to animal agriculture and the using and consuming of animal products and how problematic it is for the environment, and for ethical considerations and all of that. But over time, like I started including more and more of other issues, you know, like population, like waste, because it's all part of a bigger issue, right? It's all part of a bigger problem. And, I mean, it's just not a popular message. And the same thing goes with population. You know, I think that-
Dave Gardner 13:44
No.
Sofia Pineda Ochoa 13:45
It's a very unpopular message. But even if it's unpopular, you know, it's not a popularity contest in the end, is it? It's not a popularity contest, and it is what it is. And you have to be honest, and you have to be direct. And I mean, I believe that's the only approach that could have any hope of garnering like any change, like, you know, being honest about the situation, not hiding under a rock, not sugarcoating the information, the data, because it's really a very difficult situation which we find ourselves in. It's a very, very difficult. And there's no sugarcoating, like it's, it's really bad.
Dave Gardner 14:21
Well, that's one of the main reasons we really wanted to talk to you today. You know, you kind of came on my radar screen when you came out with that great film, Endgame 2050. And we'll put a link in the show notes for people to find that film, if they haven't seen it, you can see it free. But you've been pretty prolific about creating videos since you put out the film, which has been impressive. And one of the things that has impressed me about those videos is your courage to speak the truth about overpopulation, specifically.
Sofia Pineda Ochoa 14:51
You're, you're too kind. You're too kind, David. I mean, what else is there to say? You know, like it is what it is. It's a very problematic situation. And we keep digging ourselves in this hole, like deeper and deeper. And we keep not progressing in any of the environmental areas, in any of them. From animal agriculture, which is what I used to only focus on, now I still focus on that, but it's not you know, only on that, but from that to plastic waste to the CO2 emissions, you know. And even like, you see all the reports coming out, and, and people are like, "Oh, this new report, you know, like it says, code red for humanity." But, but yet I see the report and I see a lot of ambiguity with regards to, like, what are the concise problems? And what can people really, really do? And with regards to population, you know? And so that serves nothing. That serves no purpose if people don't have a concrete understanding of it, because it's already - even if they do, I think it will be very hard for us to take the necessary steps, so. If they don't even have the clear idea, well, how are we gonna ever get anywhere?
Dave Gardner 16:05
Yeah, I don't think you hear that articulated enough. It's kind of like, you know, have you ever wondered why you aren't making any progress? You know, you who are trying to preserve forests, or preserve biodiversity, or tackle climate change? Gee, how's that going?
Nandita Bajaj 16:20
Yeah.
Sofia Pineda Ochoa 16:21
It's not going well, in any area.
Nandita Bajaj 16:23
And Sophia, that's what I've really admired about you over the last few years of getting to see your work is, you know, you're working as a physician full-time, that's your profession. And then you woke up to this, you know, animal agriculture issue, all these years ago, and you just went in, you know, full heartedly, and you started fighting for the cause. And then you found out about overpopulation. And then you started creating these videos, trying to basically fill the gaps, where you're saying some of the, you know, scientists and environmental organizations or NGOs and governments are failing to point to what really should be done. And I just find it so admirable, that you just took the understanding from where you were at, and you started talking to people. And it's truly inspiring for me, because sometimes I can find myself getting caught up in, you know, letting perfection be the enemy of good. And I just love that, you know, every couple of months, you come up with a new video, and it's incredible.
Sofia Pineda Ochoa 17:30
It's not incredible, Nandita. But thank you. But yeah, I mean, it's just there's some things that like, are so obvious, you know, you feel like, and of course, you want to do the research, you want to see the nuances, you want to, you know, do that. But like my training is in medicine, it's not like in environmental, you know, degrees, but, but yet still, there are some things that are really, really obvious that you don't have to have - and and of the reports they're so widely available. And you can see the IPCC saying, you know, it's funny, when I released the film Endgame 2050, the World Wildlife Report, the LPI index, they said 50% of wildlife had disappeared in forty years. And I was like, "Wow, that's such a, that's such a serious thing. It's in my lifetime. You know, it's in this very short period that I've been alive, you know, and already 50%." But already, since I released the film, like there's been another new report that I think, what does it say? Like, I think it was like, 68% in fifty years or something? It's not as squared numbers in years. But gosh, you know, like, it's really bad. Like, this is really concerning. And why isn't everyone talking about this? And you mentioned, I mean, the last video I did was a little bit, not snarky, but it was meant to be a little like, I mean, and that's how I feel really. I mean, somebody told me, "Oh, it's so heavy handed. Why do you say that?" Like, it was called A Betrayal of Ignoring Human Overpopulation. And I honestly, I love it, and I feel it in my heart because that is what I feel. Like it is a betrayal for organizations, for environmentalists, for politicians, that it's not even hitting their radar. So a lot of people, like I mentioned in the video, Leonardo DiCaprio, and how involved he is and how much money he's given, like, I think literally like over a hundred million dollars. Or like, how generous he's been with charities and all, but yet not one mention ever of population. And in my mind, I think that people like him, probably it just hasn't even hit the radar. Like that's just how much these important issues don't even hit the radar. But I truly believe that there is a lot of people who it does hit their radar, but they just don't mention it because it becomes a difficult topic, because people get offended, because this and that.
Dave Gardner 19:57
Yeah.
Sofia Pineda Ochoa 19:58
But I mean, what's the alternative? Like losing everything? Like not advancing in anything with regards to the environment? Just letting it like all go to hell, because we're so dumb as a species that we can't talk about this one issue that's so important? Aren't we a little smarter than that? Like, if we can figure out technology, we can figure out a cellphone, can't we talk about something that's so obvious and undeniable? And that's what it is. It's really obvious. And it's really undeniable. It's kind of perplexing. And that's why I'm grateful for podcasts like yours, and for the work that you guys are doing bringing this to the forefront.
Dave Gardner 20:32
Oh, come on, tell us what you really feel.
Sofia Pineda Ochoa 20:35
Of course, grateful. No, like I said, grateful. And the betrayal with the people who don't mention it. And like I said, people asked me, they were like, "Oh, don't you feel like that title is heavy handed?" I was like, "No, no, I don't."
Dave Gardner 20:47
Well, you know what, that's a great video. And I was really disappointed that that came out in June and it took me a couple of months to finally see it because I just was having a crazy summer. And so I didn't get a chance to help spread the word about that video. And so now I'm going to be sharing that video widely, because I'm so proud of you. And, you know, you touched on something really important here, which is that a lot of people avoid the, they know about overpopulation, but they avoid it because it's uncomfortable, or they're worried somebody's going to make a misassumption about them being racist or eugenicist, or they're afraid that's going to make it harder for their nonprofit to raise money or something like that. And because of that silence, someone like Leonardo DiCaprio might really not be as acutely aware of the overpopulation crisis as he ought to be. And in fact, I loved that you actually asked Leonardo DiCaprio a question in that film. And with your permission, I'd really like to play that question and share that with our listeners. Can we do that?
Sofia Pineda Ochoa 21:47
Go ahead. And I just sent it to his agent, by the way, see if I get a response.
Dave Gardner 21:50
I hope so. Because as you'll notice, Sofia was pretty diplomatic. So it's, it's great that you raised the subject, you ask Leonardo DiCaprio a question, but you didn't insult the guy in the process. So listen to this.
Sofia Pineda Ochoa 22:05
But despite the direct effect our growth is having on the environment and biodiversity, most environmentalists and environmental organizations appear to be unwilling or unable to talk about it. Take Leonardo DiCaprio, for example. He is very outspoken about biodiversity loss. He genuinely cares deeply about other species in the environment. He donates a lot of money, and does a lot of work to try to stop species from going extinct. And I for one am very grateful and filled with admiration for all the important work he does. But I don't think I've ever seen Mr. DiCaprio recommend that we have fewer children. Of course, I don't have the pleasure of knowing him. So I don't know why he doesn't speak about it. But if I could, I'd love to ask him - Mr. DiCaprio, do you think the other species you rightfully care so much about stand a chance if we continue the kind of population growth we are having? Mr. DiCaprio also advocates for the forest in Brazil. And I'm glad he does, because thousands and thousands of acres are being torched and turned into farmland every day, an area equivalent to 987,000 football pitches was deforested in Brazil in just one year. But my question for Mr. DiCaprio, and for all of it environmentalists who are silent about population is - do you believe those beautiful forests in Brazil, in Indonesia, and elsewhere stand a chance of remaining as forests when we have a global human population that is growing by a new Germany every year? Do you think that the fact that we grow our numbers by a net growth of a million people every five days has no relationship with the relentless deforestation we are causing and the death and suffering of so many species who are losing their habitats? It makes my hand tremble just like to think.
Nandita Bajaj 24:19
That was incredible. That was so powerful to hear.
Sofia Pineda Ochoa 24:23
Nandita, you're so kind. You know, in the in the comments, I just saw like two days ago, somebody said, "Why so emotional?" Like so. And it's like they're right, you know, I get so emotional, but I really do feel it. Like even this feeling right now. Like my hand starts like, because I just feel so upset about it. Like it just makes my hand tremble. It really does.
Dave Gardner 24:41
Well, thank you. Thank you for that. So I expect you're gonna get an answer from him at some point, please let us know when you do.
Sofia Pineda Ochoa 24:46
You know, it cost nothing to send it to his agent. So I'm gonna actually go ahead and send it to his agent, see if he has any reaction, but I'm guessing they won't. I'll still send it to you. By any chance they can forward it along, and maybe he can think about it, because no, like, the answer is known for the question posed, you guys and I both know that the answer is no. Like, it's not gonna remain anything in the forest, you know? And when we say like, what does it have to do with the death and destruction? Well, it has everything to do with the death and destruction. And that's a very real thing. It's not something like intellectual, you know, or just some idea, like, it's real pain, it's real death that these animals are facing. You know, it's real, individual animals from elephant families that used to drink water in the hole after walking like five hundred miles, but now they get there, and, oh, guess what? Their little hole is now fenced off because it's used for farming, and then they die. You know? I read this, this Swiss wildlife organization that said that in thirty-one years the African elephant decreased by, I think, 86% in thirty-one years. Like, this is a crisis, you know, this is no time for anything other than just doing what we can and everything we can, you know.
Nandita Bajaj 26:09
Yeah, and I actually truly love the name of the video, because it's, it's not just the betrayal towards other species, which I'm so glad that you are talking about because it often gets, you know, left off the conversation from even population discussions. But it's actually a betrayal towards human rights. The population growth that is happening is premised on exploitation of people. So, you know, it's not that we are asking for one set of rights to be upheld, at the cost of another set of rights. We are saying addressing overpopulation actually lifts everyone up: people, animals, the planet. So I really do think that betrayal is the perfect word to describe what you're saying, because there's kind of this hiding behind surface ideas about what addressing overpopulation means. And the surface ideas are, you know, spread so widely, so prevalent in environmental circles that like, as Dave you were alluding to, that somehow this means that we are trying to employ some kind of exploitative population control against certain types of people. And it's the complete opposite. Addressing overpopulation relies on upholding human rights and actually allowing people to be able to make free and responsible decisions about family size, which a lot of people around the world do not yet have.
Sofia Pineda Ochoa 27:44
And they don't even have a clue that it's something that it should be on the radar, that they should, like, consider that, should be maybe like a good idea. You know, and I made an effort to include that because there's this idea that it's somehow giving a pass to rich nations, like I've seen that in, I don't know, it's just probably not very prevalent, but it is prevalent in like, little like, first world environmental like journals, or whatever, you know. And that was one of the points even like, why I talked about so much about the United States and the population growth here, you know, like, even how it has grown, and how unsustainable it is, and how it's a worldwide thing, it's not specific about, you know, one country or another. Like we're just vastly unsustainable, generally, you know, and the way that we consume resources unsustainably as well. But just from a purely population standpoint, even if we were trying to be very sustainable, I mean, there's limits to how sustainable you can be and just the fact that even if we were all like herbivores, vegans, you know, which I strongly advocate for it and I think we should and it would give us a break and more time to slowly, you know, over generations, like manage the population, let it slowly go, because that's how it's gotta be, ideally.
Dave Gardner 29:03
But just real quickly, you're saying that if most of us adopted a vegan lifestyle, that would lighten the load on the planet enough that we might have a chance to actually still be here, what by the time we've bent the curve, and human population has gotten back to a sustainable level?
Sofia Pineda Ochoa 29:21
Yeah, it's extremely important. And it's also, to me, it's kind of like a no brainer, because it doesn't require complex and expensive infrastructure and technology and laws and stuff like that. It's a very empowering thing that people can do on an individual thing, you know, starting with their own very next meal. And it's pretty noncontroversial, like the impact that animal agriculture has, because of the fact that it's so inefficient to bring the energy from the ground to the plants, from the plants to the animals, for the animals. Like it's not a controversial thing, like it's a super inefficient situation. So I think that's a no brainer, you know. So it's not the only thing we need, we also obviously need to be honest with ourselves about how our population is simply just not sustainable. And we need to understand that and work towards that in a human rights approach and in a human rights approached way. But the thing with consumption, we can like chew gum and walk at the same time. Like, there's this, like, dichotomy like, oh, you know, and I've heard it, and some people have told me like, you know, I mean, I've heard it from both sides, like, "Oh, you shouldn't be talking about veganism because that just makes people think that if I just address that then, you know, nobody has-" And I was like "No, like, that's not what I said. Like, that's not what I said, like, you can hear the thing and that's not what I said, you know." But its the same thing from the others. I don't know, everyone just loves to, like, create like drama. And like, no, that's not the way, this is the way, you know, everyone loves that. But yeah, we can chew gum and walk at the same time. And, and the situation is so bad right now. Like, we have to honestly just do what we can. And I think both of them are necessary and very important. But I just want to say one more thing, like without like, I fully understand like some people say, "Well, it's because of our size of the population that animal agriculture is such a devastating thing." And obviously, I fully understand that. From a purely environmental standpoint, not from an ethical standpoint, or a health standpoint. And I believe those two to be very important as well. Maybe for a second, for just an exercise we say, "Okay, just from a purely environmental standpoint, if we had not grown our population so much, yes, it would probably not be such a problem." But you know what? We did. We did grow so much, and now we're eight billion people.
Dave Gardner 31:46
Here we are.
Sofia Pineda Ochoa 31:47
So it's not like we can say, well, like three hundred years ago, five hundred years ago, our population was whatever it was back then, you know. I know, ten thousand years ago, it was one million, just one million. But that's not what we are to now. So it is what it is. And we have to be honest with ourselves. And I think that going vegan is an important part of averting this, like keeping destroying the planet.
Dave Gardner 32:10
I loved your palm oil plantation story in that betrayal video about switching from palm oil to something else and then discovering well, I didn't solve the problem I thought I did. And you know, the world's full of really good, ecoconscious people who think that they're really being green, because you know, they've ditched the plastic straw, or they've ditched palm oil, or they're really focusing on preserving forests, or they're really conserving water. So what do you say to them? Why isn't that enough?
Sofia Pineda Ochoa 32:41
Because the bottom line is, when we have eight billion humans, there's basically nothing that's sustainable. I chose that example because you see that how we get like, so narrow minded, and we just focus on just one little thing. Like, oh, palm oil is becoming a problem. Let's all make a fuss out of it. Let's boycott this product that has palm oil or whatever. And, you know, obviously, and I did mention in the video, like the less processed food, the better. You know, even if it's, you know, without animal foods, if it's vegan food. Like without processed foods, it's like less energy and less resources, it's better. But the thing is, like, the other oils, as I understand it, are less energy efficient than palm oil. So the situation about boycotting this thing or another is, as you can see, it will probably be an equally bad disaster, or perhaps even worse, like if we, you know, it's like no palm oil, like only coconut or soybean oil, or whatever. And so I think when we have eight billion people, there's really nothing that's sustainable. And that's why I also mentioned avocados. And because I am from Mexico, and I really have seen so much devastation in Mexico. I didn't get into it because the length was already so bad. But the problem that Mexico is having with water, because of all the avocados that are being farmed and exported, is really severe. And I'm gonna put that in a future video.
Dave Gardner 34:10
So dang, I need to give up guacamole. That's not right.
Sofia Pineda Ochoa 34:13
I mean-
Dave Gardner 34:14
In addition to solving overpopulation.
Sofia Pineda Ochoa 34:17
I don't know, Dave.
Nandita Bajaj 34:18
Don't speak in binary language, Dave.
Sofia Pineda Ochoa 34:21
I don't, I don't know Dave. I mean, I mean, that was an example that I use to highlight that, that everything is an example. But if I tell you, "Well, toilet paper is a problem," and you tell me "Well, I'm gonna give up toilet paper." Well, I will tell you, "Well don't. Don't give up toilet paper." In the end, you can't just like not... so I mean, it becomes very challenging. You know, like, if everything it creates such a problem, but I don't know Dave, I don't know the answer to that. I will tell you that I do consume avocados. But you know, I don't consume any animal foods. But it was just a point to to say that, to highlight how every product, and that's what I mentioned in the part of the avocados. Like stop like saying like this or that, like, it's all unsustainable, is all unsustainable, and it's causing serious problems to the people in Mexico, to the people in Peru, I highlighted with the fact that whatever stuff that they're exporting, to the people in Africa who are exporting cacao, their forests are being slashed. And so stop with this denial like, just stop it.
Dave Gardner 35:25
Yeah, I think the point is, you can be silent about overpopulation as long as you give up avocados, no more toilet paper, no more vegetable oils, no more plastic, there's like two thousand things that you have to give up and that we have to get exactly right if we want to ignore overpopulation and have eight, nine, ten billion people walking the face of the Earth.
Sofia Pineda Ochoa 35:48
Not even, I don't think, not even. Because okay, no more this, no more that. But no more house? No more concrete? No more schools? You're not gonna go to like a hospital? No more infrastructure? What do you think, that like, that cement doesn't emit CO2? You think that having eighty million additional people per year, you don't think that that's going to increase the CO2 emissions? Like just like for whatever like infrastructure is needed. And so no, not even. Even if you were just gonna live with no clothes, and that's, you know that's impractical, does not really. So no, I don't think anyone gets a pass, anyone, ever in anywhere. Like it's just, and the reason why nobody gets a pass on this, or I don't mean it, like in a mean way. Like, it's not that nobody gets a pass. Like, why everyone I think should be very strongly raising awareness about this, is because like you said, like, there's no progress being done in anything, even though it looks like there is. And I actually wrote up an article for Population Matters about animal products, and how there's this illusion that everyone - that the world is going vegan, you know, and that animal products are decreasing and, and you kind of see it, like you go to the grocery store, and don't you see it, there's so much variety of plant-based products, and which is great, and I love to see that. But what I don't love to see and what also makes my hand shake, as you can see a lot of things, like my hands shake with like emotion, is is like when I saw like a report from the UN that they were projecting to the next ten years, dairy was gonna increase by 20%. Like, where is the victory in that?
Nandita Bajaj 37:31
Yeah, and the number of animals that are being slaughtered, currently, which is over seventy billion, is supposed to go to a hundred and forty billion in another thirty years. In fifty years, it has more than tripled from what it used to be. And then in another thirty years, it's going to double on top of what it's at. So I'm with you that there doesn't seem to be really a downward trend when it comes to our consumption habits. And, you know, we often talk about on this podcast, is consumption levels only seem to be trending upwards, especially as more and more people around the world are wanting to live lifestyles that Americans and Western industrialized countries have had for a long time. And you can't blame people for wanting to live a good life. You know, it's it's part of the upholding of human rights to be able to allow everyone to live a sustainable life. But something's gotta give, right? And that's what I'm really appreciative of, the passion that you're bringing to the urgency of the issue is something has to give and that is, we need to start talking about this issue, because none of the other issues are really going to solve the problem. And I wanted to add another thing about the start of the misinformation. It starts early on. So the betrayal doesn't just start with media in journalism and poor reporting. It starts in schools. I was an educator for over ten years and in high school, and I was teaching science and physics and climate change. And when it came to solutions that students could undertake, actions they could undertake, we were still teaching them, at least the textbooks, talking about changing light bulbs, hanging your clothes out to dry, using cold water in the laundry, and all of the good things that are good, ecoconscious things to do, but when you compare them to other actions, such as moving to a plant-based diet, or not owning a car. Hey, you know, the thing we talked about in climate change in our science class is oh, moving to an electric car because you must have a car. And having small families? Zero. No mention of the population impact. 99% of the things we talked about were the tiny, low impact things that you could feel good about. And then 1% was about, you know, clean energy and electric cars. So it's hugely prevalent in society, and it starts at a young age.
Sofia Pineda Ochoa 40:27
Don't you think they follow the footsteps of like environmental organizations? Like if they are saying do this and that, then the schools are just, there's just gonna grab their recommendations from, I don't know, Greenpeace or WWF, or whatever, you know, and just, yeah. And so and I understand that, you know, like, Dave said, like, that may alienate their donors, and they do rely on those donations. So, I don't know. So maybe, like, there is a very important role for like, people like you, you know, who are doing like these podcasts that are very specific about these issues. And, you know, so that you don't have to be so like, overly concerned, like some of these other organizations are, but at the same time, yeah, it is very important for people who kind of like set the trend in what is known for everyone, for what they have to do to be clear about about these things.
Dave Gardner 41:19
Well we're definitely trying hard to kind of push the edge of the envelope and to make it okay for those other organizations to start talking about this issue. And that's exactly what I think you're doing with your videos, is you're being bold, you're subjecting yourself potentially even to criticism in order to make it easier for people. To alert people and to make it easier for the people who aren't quite as bold and lionhearted as you are to start talking about this subject. And you even stick up for the insects, one of your recent videos, which was amazing, just like the others, is Vanishing Insects Spell Trouble For Humans. So apparently, we can't even give up beef and start eating grasshoppers for protein. Can we?
Sofia Pineda Ochoa 41:59
Yeah, no, you know, like, I mean, the whole insect thing, you know, and it's funny, because I want people like, they just really don't care too much. Even without admitting I was like, wow, these stats are so alarming. Like, wow! Like they are plummeting and even more than vertebrates, and in that, and it has to do because it was in their land, and also because of the pesticides and, and so on. And because we're just taking a lot of their land and putting whatever farms or cities or whatever that they don't have, their wild things that they depend on. But yeah, no insects are plummeting. And it's one more thing that we always think like, oh, so we're so separate from everything because we have this notion that, that we don't depend on nature at all. But you know, insects are so important. And I mentioned in the video how important they are for being the base of the ecosystem and for pollinating 75% of our food. You know, it's incredibly important. And the trends that we're seeing, is it, it couldn't be more alarming. What we're seeing and what we've seen, like in the last twenty, forty years, is this unprecedented, and you can't even see it. Like, I know this anecdotal, but if you do like a trip in a car, you know, in some areas where you used to, like twenty years ago, it used to be like the car was splattered in the shield with all these insects. No, I know, that's anecdotal. But the, I've seen the scientists who like write these papers actually use this as an example. The fact that like, it's not as much has to do with the fact that there's just a lot less insects, like the math has significantly decreased. You know, like, in sometimes, like 75% in like, just a few decades. Just really concerning stats all over. And it's a problem with us, you know, like, we just feel so separate from nature. And sometimes I see comments, people say, "Well, this is, we're not animals," and I'm like, "Um, um, yes, we are like biologically, like, categorically animals. And we are actually - what kind of animals are we? We are primates. We are a primate species, like primates are divided in, you know, human primates and nonhuman primates." And I think you guys, you know, I think that's part of the challenge with everything, you know, because we evolved so quickly, and we have all this technology. But it seems like we're just still, with our brain, driven by such like short-sighted drives: our status, our ego, are these very emotional things. And, and even if like, the report is saying, oh, in thirty years, this and that, people are like, "Oh, thirty years..." Like, you know, it's like Jesus, can't we? You know, I feel like that's part of it. Part of the challenge. Actually, I watched a movie, a documentary the other day about chimpanzees, which are the closest primate relative that we have, are chimpanzees. And I will honestly, you know, they build these, like groups, the chimpanzees, and they actually, like fight between them. And they're very status oriented. And I was like, looks a little like, and they sometimes get into fights just over like this status and they'll tear each other apart. And, you know, like us, they're like, primarily herbivorous animals. And they can eat a 100% vegan diet, but they still occasionally like to go hunting, and they'll hunt other monkeys. And they'll sometimes kill each other. Because like, they enjoy that, like, the male disposition. And I'm telling you, I was looking at it and I was like, "Well, we are a primate species, and we have to acknowledge our shortcomings and deal with that too."
Nandita Bajaj 45:46
But the only species that has caused the destruction of all other species, unlike the chimpanzees.
Sofia Pineda Ochoa 45:53
Oh, yeah, of course. Well, maybe if they had acquired technology, maybe they would be more destructive, because they can be kind of difficult. This for chimpanzees that are being like, there's so little of them left. But yeah, I mean, we acquire technology, we're so efficient at extracting resources, but we're just up here, we're just not that great, you know, and we're like, they say, sawing the branch that you're hanging from, or whatever that sayings is, you know, and, and yeah, no other species has caused a mass extinction like we have, and you know, there's no mass extinction other than, in recent history, apart from what the dinosaurs had, with an asteroid that hit the planet, I mean, our, our little harmless habits, our little, everything looks so harmless, you know, you look at me, with my little hands. You know, we all look so harmless, but we're not collected, we're just a force to be reckoned with, a disaster, you know, for this planet right now. And we have to take responsibility over that and, and change our ways if we are to survive. And, and one of the main things with that, and one of the important things with that is having - acknowledging something, like I said, that's so obvious and undeniable, and the fact that that we're so vastly overpopulated and it's hitting us everywhere, and it's hitting the planet, and it's every- and it's hitting the animals, too.
Nandita Bajaj 47:09
And I wanted to tell you that I'm actually using your Humanity's Land Grab Disaster video, as a kind of as a knowledge base for me to present at an animal law conference. And I have to tell you guys that just like all other social justice movements, the animal justice movement is also in denial of the overpopulation issue. And with us being animal advocates, and being sustainable population advocates, it can be really frustrating when people believe that veganism is the pinnacle of animal liberation, and not realize that the impact of having children and larger population is sixty times, seventy times more impactful, more harmful for animals than not eating animal products or using animal products. And for the longest time, it was really difficult to get into the animal justice movement. And I have to give a shout out to the Animal Legal Defense Fund for accepting my proposal when so many other organizations declined it. And I'll be using a lot of this sources that you have cited in your incredible video, which I also use on our website to help make the connection for people who are coming to, you know, the overpopulation issue from the animal protection standpoint is that the data is irrefutable. So, you know, I really do think that the short videos allow you to then keep adding more and more information as you learn more. So it's a brilliant idea. And one more thing, as an educator, it allows people to use those videos in classes, you know, when they're shorter, twenty minute long. You can put them in your lesson, watch it, and then have another, you know, forty minutes to discuss and plan your class around that. So keep up the amazing work.
Sofia Pineda Ochoa 49:19
I'm so grateful for the feedback because, you know, I actually have been in a mode of analysis paralysis for the last few months, because my next video was gonna be about water. And I know so much stuff about water. So water and overshoot. And by the way, here's a spoiler like, it is so bad, and you guys know this already about the freshwater situation. You know, even like I did not know it was so bad. You know, I was like doing all this research about these aquifers and like the projections, and oh my gosh, it's so bad. But because I had so much like information, I was like, boy, can I really fit this in a twenty, thirty. And I was like, should I should I like venture and do it? But I feel like exhausted just thinking about doing it. But now like, you know, like, your feedback's really like, and I had been, like, pointing myself toward, like, no, I'll just do like shorter videos like twenty, thirty. And I'm glad you shared your thoughts with me, you know, that's, that's really helpful. So now that you're interested, then that's gonna be the next one, you know, it's gonna be one about water, it's gonna be about overshoot, it's gonna be about how it's hurting the animals, it's gonna be about how it's hurting populations. And I'm gonna talk about like the Mexican example. Boy, is it a problem. They're even having a lot of earthquakes in that part where they're producing the most avocados, because they're draining all this water from underground sources to grow these plants and export them. It is bad. But anyway, another happy video like, happy, happy, happy video.
Dave Gardner 50:50
You know, your research is impressive. And I found myself taking notes as I watched the videos. We're gonna put links in the show notes for all of these videos. And of course, we'll make it easy for people to find your YouTube channel. So you should be, in a perfect world, you would be one of the top influencers on YouTube, and maybe it will become that way.
Sofia Pineda Ochoa 51:09
In a perfect world, I would have like millions and millions of followers and millions of views on each video but, I'll keep doing it.
Dave Gardner 51:17
And you're not in it for the money, obviously. So thanks for what you do.
Sofia Pineda Ochoa 51:20
Thank you guys for what you do. Like, we're all doing it for the same reason, because we're so so worried. You know, I feel like we have a moral responsibility to do what we can, you know, sometimes you can't. I know, at certain point in my life, I would not be able to do anything. When I was just worried with, you know, getting by and just getting enough getting my studies done. So, you know, I think we all have the obligation to do what we can, but I know that it's because it's such a difficult situation. It's you know, it's challenging.
Dave Gardner 51:55
Code red indeed. All right, Sofia, thank you. You really are a hero, a champion, and keep up the good work.
Sofia Pineda Ochoa 52:05
You guys are the heroes and the champions.
Nandita Bajaj 52:07
And Sofia, as the newest advisory member of Population Balance, welcome to the team. I'm thrilled to have you as a partner and a supporter, and I'm sure we will have lots of collaborative things that we will work on.
Sofia Pineda Ochoa 52:23
Well, thank you for the Spanish we would say, "Gracias por la confianza." Like, thank you for the confidence, I'm like struggling with a translation for that. But I love the work that you guys do. And you know, so thank you for including me and anything you can think of, Nandita, just let me know.
Nandita Bajaj 52:41
You bet I will.
Sofia Pineda Ochoa 52:43
Alright, wonderful.
Dave Gardner 52:44
I'm pretty beat, but pretty jazzed after having that conversation with Sofia.
Nandita Bajaj 52:50
So am I. What an energetic conversation that was. I'm feeling excited and energized by it all. And, you know, also the urgency that she expresses. You know, when she talks about her hands are shaking from anger of people not taking this seriously enough. It's very powerful to have that visceral response from somebody. And I just think it's very inspiring for her to just give everything she's got to this cause.
Dave Gardner 53:22
We should all really feel that level of passion and that level of betrayal. You know, human civilization in general, but all of the suspects that she mentions, are betraying the children of the world today, and betraying the next generation, and the next generation. It's a pretty serious betrayal. So her alarmism isn't misplaced. That's for sure.
Nandita Bajaj 53:46
Yeah.
Dave Gardner 53:47
So be sure and check the show notes for links. We'll include links to her several videos and the film, which is free to watch, and Meat Your Future, the website that started it all. We usually close with an inspirational quote, and I'm glad it's not my turn. It's your turn.
Nandita Bajaj 54:04
Yeah, thanks Dave. I've actually chosen a quote that is dedicated to you, because I'm feeling quite sentimental about this being your last episode. This quote is from one of our heroes, Jane Goodall. And it goes, you cannot get through a single day without having an impact on the world around you. What you do makes a difference. And you have to decide what kind of difference you want to make. And the reason I chose that, Dave, is because a few decades ago, you decided that you wanted to make a difference, and what kind of difference you wanted to make when you chose to dedicate your life to this path. And I want you to know that you have been a tremendous source of inspiration to me and to countless others in taking this road definitely less travelled, and leaving behind such a great legacy. I really, I'm going to miss you. I really admire you, and I hope we are going to continue working together on the same path.
Dave Gardner 55:15
Wow, I really am honored and yeah, thanks. I don't know what to say. But I know, I know we're in good hands. So I know what I'm gonna say, something really serious, I have a good serious response to that quote. I'm made of rubber, you're made of glue, bounces off me and sticks on you. Did you ever say that when you were a kid?
Nandita Bajaj 55:37
I did not.
Dave Gardner 55:39
Yeah, that was the thing when somebody insulted you, that that's what the kids would say, so. That quote really does apply to you, and it will continue to apply to you. So you might want to frame it, put it on the wall, and put your name on it, because we're gonna be counting on you.
Nandita Bajaj 55:54
Well isn't it great to belong to a mutual admiration society?
Dave Gardner 55:58
Yeah, great for us. I hope the listeners can shuffle the sugar out of the way and get on with your lives after you've listened to this podcast. But there's a lot of love going on here, so. It's been a great ride, and I don't think the ride's over, it's just changing a little bit. All right, well that's it for this edition of the Overpopulation Podcast. I want to thank you, as always, Nandita, for the vital work that you and the staff at Population Balance are doing.
Nandita Bajaj 56:22
Thank you Dave, for your incredible leadership over all these years and for giving birth to this incredible podcast. Visit populationbalance.org to learn more about how we can solve world overpopulation. While you're there, click on that donate button and make sure Population Balance can continue important initiatives like that pronatalism webinar and this podcast.
Dave Gardner 56:47
Did she mention the donate button?
Nandita Bajaj 56:48
I think I missed it.
Dave Gardner 56:49
Click on that. Click on that. And you know what? If Jane Goodall has inspired you to want to make a difference, here's one other way you can make a difference, besides clicking on that button, you can make a difference by sharing this podcast with friends, family, colleagues, and importantly, journalists, and elected representatives. They need some overpopulation literacy for sure.
Nandita Bajaj 57:14
And I'll actually start sharing it with educators in my network because they need population literacy just as much. Until next time, I'm Nandita Bajaj, reminding you that we can all make a dent in this movement by choosing small footprint families, whatever family means to you.
