Reflection on Six Years of Leading World Population Balance

Apr. 21

Podcast co-host Dave Gardner reflects on the agony and the ecstasy of working to alert, educate, and inspire action to end our overpopulation crisis. Nandita Bajaj turns the table and interviews Gardner about his 6 years on the podcast and serving as executive director of World Population Balance. Who IS this guy? Why has he been working seven days a week for years to alert people about population overshoot and to “save the planet?” Don’t worry, Dave’s not leaving the podcast. But on May 1st he is stepping out of his position leading World Population Balance, the nonprofit standing up for the rights of future generations to live in a world worth inheriting. Gardner reflects on the state of the issue, and what progress has been made. He also shares his assessment of some of the obstacles to our work – including news media, economists, the population taboo, overpopulation denial, myths, misassumptions, and baby bust alarmism. Our next episode will announce and introduce World Population Balance’s new executive director. Don’t miss it!

MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE

Nandita Bajaj 00:00
Dave Gardner's been hosting or co-hosting the Overpopulation Podcast since its inception in 2015. Who is this guy? Why has he been working seven days a week for years to alert people about population overshoot, and to save the planet? We'll find out next on the Overpopulation Podcast. Welcome to the Overpopulation Podcast, the podcast that dares to stand up for the rights of future generations to live in a world worth inheriting. I'm Nandita Bajaj. My co-host, Dave Gardner, is stepping out of his role as Executive Director of World Population Balance. Fortunately, he plans to continue co-hosting this podcast with me.
Dave Gardner 00:51
Just how fortunate that is may be a matter of opinion. Hi, Nandita. It's good to be with you.
Nandita Bajaj 00:57
Hi, Dave. This is going to be an exciting one.
Dave Gardner 00:59
Yeah, it could be. Or it could be a snoozer, we'll see. Quick mention that worldpopulationbalance.org is the place to go to learn more about human overpopulation, its compassionate solution, and the nonprofit that works tirelessly to alert, educate, and inspire people to end the overpopulation crisis.
Nandita Bajaj 01:20
In this episode, I thought we should celebrate Dave and his work leading World Population Balance over the past six years. But before we jump into that, do you have anything to share from the inbox, Dave?
Dave Gardner 01:32
I do, I do. But first I want to mention, we're publishing this episode on Earth Day of 2021. So Happy Earth Day, Nandita.
Nandita Bajaj 01:40
How fitting. Happy Earth Day, Dave.
Dave Gardner 01:43
Now for the inbox. Fifty-one days ago, from the publication of this episode, I got this email from earthday.org. I'm gonna read it to you. We're marking fifty-one days to Earth Day by bringing you fifty-one actions you can take for the planet. Volunteer for cleanups, calculate your carbon footprint, support the Canopy Project, become inspired by dozens of ideas of how you can work to restore our Earth. Earth Day actions are often the first ways people become involved in environmentalism. And we take our responsibility as the on ramp to activism seriously. Our role goes beyond one day. We work year round spreading awareness of climate literacy and regenerative agriculture, building partnerships to support local communities, and organizing cleanups to tackle the trash and plastic problems. For us to make global change, we must have local action. That's where you come in. You can demonstrate your commitment to the environment through individual actions from composting to contacting your local representatives. Check out our fifty-one actions in honor of the fifty-first anniversary of Earth Day. Together, we can protect the planet through collective action and unified voices. Now I'm sharing this with you, Nandita, because I was I was curious. So I clicked and looked over the list of fifty-one recommended actions, I confess that I was thinking, you know, in a list of fifty-one things you can do for the planet, there's bound to be room for an item or two about doing something to address overpopulation, right?
Nandita Bajaj 03:20
Always the optimist Dave.
Dave Gardner 03:22
Well, maybe so. Yeah, cuz sadly, out of those fifty-one items, there is not a mention of family size, support for family planning, or educating and empowering women and girls. Meanwhile, there's three items about picking up trash. That's a good thing but it's really pretty lightweight on the list of things to really steer the ship in the direction of sustainability. So it wasn't a matter of not being able to fit all of the important items into a list of fifty-one. They had plenty of room for the some of the lightweight stuff. So I found that disappointing, and I thought maybe we should just have a brief chat about why you think that might be happening.
Nandita Bajaj 03:59
I agree. That is disappointing. And it may be that it wasn't a calculated decision. But as we continue to see in a lot of sustainability and environmental movements, there is an avoidance, you know, or ignoring or forgetting about overpopulation. And it may just be a hard habit to break.
Dave Gardner 04:18
Yeah, I think you're right. You know, and it could be that the list was put together by someone who wasn't maybe, you know, at the top of the food chain, a really great thought leader, and maybe the thought leaders are on to this. They're out of the population taboo and they're finished avoiding the subject but because it's been avoided and run from for so long that the communication staff, the volunteers, a lot of people, they're not in the habit of thinking about it or talking about it because it has been avoided. You're right when you call it a habit. And in this case, I'm thinking well, maybe it wasn't calculated because the earthday.org organization is doing one really good thing they are having a population panel on Earth Day with Terry Spahr, the producer of the film 8 Billion Angels, which is all about the overpopulation crisis.
Nandita Bajaj 05:09
Yeah, I agree. It is applause worthy that they are doing that. And maybe it's worth giving them the benefit of the doubt.
Dave Gardner 05:16
Yep. So we'll do it. But you know, gotta have just a little bit of wall of shame here for fifty-one items, really? And not even support family planning on the list? That's an oversight. At best.
Nandita Bajaj 05:27
I agree. On that note, check out earthday.org today, April 22nd, to see the 8 Billion Angels panel. We'll put a link in the show notes, too. We do like to hear from our listeners, so if you have any feedback or if there's a topic you'd like us to explore, email us at podcast@worldpopulationbalance.org. Alright, Dave, I'm really excited to have this conversation. So let's do it.
Dave Gardner 05:53
All right, hit me with your best shot.
Nandita Bajaj 05:55
So it's gonna be challenging to encapsulate all six years of your amazing work at World Population Balance in one podcast, but let's do our best. How does it feel to be on the other side of the table?
Dave Gardner 06:07
You know what it is? It feels empowering. You know, I've been, there's so many things to say about this. First of all, let me say that even though I am stepping out of my role as Executive Director, my plan is not to stop co-hosting this podcast with you, although I could get fired by the new Executive Director at any time. And that would be okay.
Nandita Bajaj 06:28
Let's hope that doesn't happen.
Dave Gardner 06:30
I'm happy to keep contributing there. And I'm not leaving the, the cause and the activist community. But you know, and I've been doing the Executive Director role for six years, and I'm kind of worn out. But it's not from six years of, of leading World Population Balance, it's really from twenty years of working in this field, really starting with local activism in my community, and then raising the money and producing the Growth Busters documentary, and then the Growth Busters podcast, the Conversation Earth Radio Series, and then stepping into this role at World Population Balance. I've got this almost twenty year history and habit of working seven days a week, getting up at 4:30 or 5:30 in the morning, voluntarily, no alarm, just because I got a planet to save. And it is pretty exhausting. So I'm feeling good about being able to relax a little bit, to be able to take time to read a thirty page report or start working my way through the ten foot tall stack of books on my nightstand. So I'm kind of excited about that.
Nandita Bajaj 07:33
It's such a nice way to pull away from this kind of work. And like you say, you're not really pulling away from your activism work, you're just stepping away from this role so you can have more time to focus on the different ways in which you love advocating for the planet.
Dave Gardner 07:50
Yeah, you know, it felt like finishing constructing an airplane while it's in flight.
Nandita Bajaj 07:55
Right.
Dave Gardner 07:56
There was never enough time to sit back and pause and reflect. That was like a nonstop stream of fire drills and emergencies. So it feels a little less like a fire drill already.
Nandita Bajaj 08:06
And that's wonderful. And I've got lots of nice questions lined up to find out what Dave's going to be doing post-World Population Balance. But before I get there, I wanted to first find out, you know, how did this journey into overpopulation advocacy begin? I know you said you were working on the Growth Busters documentary, and leading the Conversation Earth Radio Series, and launching the podcast when you took on the leadership role here, but who got you interested in these issues?
Dave Gardner 08:37
I'll try not to go on too long about this, but I really started kind of observing and caring about the population issue about twenty years ago. I was living in Dallas, was it twenty years ago? No even longer than that really. Really more like thirty years ago, I was living in Dallas, Texas, which was one of my most foolish decisions ever - way too far away from the mountains. But that city was growing like crazy. And the quality of life was going down fast. It was just becoming a miserable place to live. Gunfire at night and people really rude to each other on the freeways. And-
Nandita Bajaj 09:13
Right.
Dave Gardner 09:14
You know, you could just see the anonymity and the pressure of having so many people packed in there. It wasn't bringing out the best in people and I, my family made a quality of life decision, moved back to my hometown of Colorado Springs, Colorado. Much smaller, and yet, that city was bound and determined to be as big as Denver as soon as it could. Its metric for success was population growth. And that made me pay attention to it and become concerned about it. And I actually became kind of a local activist about all of the pursuit of growth and the growth subsidies in city and county government here, and it seemed particularly foolish here in the American West. We were at the beginning of a drought, some people are speculating may be a megadrought that is continuing to this day. So it's a foolish place to think that you should keep adding more people. And it's really an ill advised metric to think that the success of your city, your state, your province, your territory, your country, is reflected by how fast your population is growing. On an overpopulated planet, that's just an insane metric and a lousy goal. So I was paying attention to all those things, and finally just decided, you know what? Somebody needs to do a film about this, because this is just a global problem.
Nandita Bajaj 10:35
Yeah.
Dave Gardner 10:35
And that kind of launched me down the path of doing the Growth Busters documentary, and I've never been able to go back to doing what I used to do, which was creating propaganda films for Fortune 500 companies and helping the capitalists grow.
Nandita Bajaj 10:51
Right, right. And then you had a change of heart.
Dave Gardner 10:55
Yeah, big time. Just a complete reversal. I'm kind of ashamed of the fact that I spent, you know, twenty or thirty years just cashing those checks and doing that work, telling the stories that weren't really good for the human race. But finally, I decided it was time to tell the right stories. And in a way, it was kind of circling back because when I was in high school, I read Desert Solitaire by Edward Abbey, and I had some really good experiences that really gave me a good foundation of a good conservation ethic.
Nandita Bajaj 11:23
Yeah.
Dave Gardner 11:24
But I did what I think what happened to a lot of those young people who, you know, on the first Earth Day, what fifty-one years ago, you know, there were a whole lot of young people who were really concerned about the environment, they were concerned about population growth even, and a lot of activism. But that didn't last. A lot of that died down. And I think part of that was, well, you know, you graduate from college, maybe you get married, you know, you plug in to the system that we have.
Nandita Bajaj 11:52
Yeah.
Dave Gardner 11:52
And that's what I did. I got married, I wanted to be a good provider, I was all focused on just building my business and making sure that I was not only being a good provider, but also I was focused on how much money I was making, because I was comparing my financial success to my peers.
Nandita Bajaj 12:09
Yeah.
Dave Gardner 12:09
And so I got on that treadmill. And fortunately, I had two kids. Why? Well, because that was what you do.
Nandita Bajaj 12:17
Right, yeah.
Dave Gardner 12:18
And a little pressure from the wife that I thought, after number two, I got a vasectomy because I had read the Population Bomb, which Paul and Anne Ehrlich had written back in the late sixties. So I was aware of the issue, but you know, I jumped on the treadmill along with everybody else after I got out of college. And it just took me a long time to wake up and figure out where true north really was.
Nandita Bajaj 12:41
Yeah, I mean, in some ways, Dave, your story describes the story of a lot of advocates in a ton of social justice movements. I think we all kind of follow the script that's written out for us about what success means and what these measures of success are. And I think whether it's in our twenties, thirties, forties, you know, or later, some of us start recognizing that those aren't the things that bring us true joy or happiness as they're meant to. So in some ways, your example is a good one, because it mimics the lives of so many of us who've had an awakening later in our lives, from somebody else's example. And it also I think, makes you and other advocates on the field more relatable, because you've been on the other side, and you show inspiration to those of us who are trying to get on the other side.
Dave Gardner 13:42
Well, thanks for saying that. You know, I think that is changing though a little bit. I think there are more young people turning on to this, I think probably just because we've damaged the planet to such an extent now that it's pretty hard to miss.
Nandita Bajaj 13:56
Yeah.
Dave Gardner 13:57
So I don't think we have to wait for as many people to age to the point where they've seen it, and they, their kids are out of the house and the pressures off for them to stay on the treadmill. You know, that was what we kind of had to wait for before. But now, I see younger people getting involved, like you. You know, you're not even forty years old and you are committed and passionate about this. And so that's that's the good news I'm thrilled about.
Nandita Bajaj 14:23
Thank you. Yeah, I think in terms of, you know, the urgency for trying to reverse the trends, it's much more prevalent and, and in our face.
Dave Gardner 14:36
Unfortunately, yeah.
Nandita Bajaj 14:37
You know, a lot of the younger people are growing up with that knowledge.
Dave Gardner 14:42
Yep.
Nandita Bajaj 14:43
So, yeah no, it's great to hear that story and what got you thinking about these things. When you decided to take on the leadership at World Population Balance, you were already involved in quite a few things. What brought you on? What made you you decide?
Dave Gardner 15:00
You know, in a way, it was a really pretty easy decision because I had, I was familiar with World Population Balance. I had met the visionary founder and leader of that organization, Dave Paxson, who founded it back in 1992. And included him in my Growth Busters documentary because he really spoke very articulately about the subject. And the message was right, which was that - we know what the solution is, it's just choosing smaller families. We don't need to dictate it or legislate it. We just need to make sure everyone is aware that we are already overpopulated. So let's use the word overpopulation, let's not run away from it. That was a part of the messaging of World Population Balance. And that impressed me. So when he decided it was time for him to ease out a little bit, he and I talked, and I, and we knew we needed someone very committed and very passionate, and ideally very knowledgeable on the subject. And we looked around and wow, I was the leading candidate, maybe the only candidate. So it was an easy, yes. But I was, I wasn't willing to give up the Growth Busters work that I was doing. So I said, "I can only do this part-time, I'll just be an hourly person. So that, you know, on weeks or months where I could hardly show up, you know, I'm not drawing a salary for doing nothing." But the job grew. And over the six year, almost six years that I've held the position, it's been sneaking up to more and more of a full-time job. And it really should have been full-time.
Nandita Bajaj 16:35
Right.
Dave Gardner 16:35
All along, because it's such an important issue.
Nandita Bajaj 16:38
Yeah, well, from my perspective, whether you were the only candidate or not, you were the right candidate.
Dave Gardner 16:44
It's nice of you to say.
Nandita Bajaj 16:45
I've been, you know, so touched by the work that you've done for World Population Balance, my only introduction to the organization was through you, you know, in the last three or four years. And I've been listening to your podcasts religiously, and I love them. And I feel that's something that was very unique that you hit upon in bringing to World Population Balance. Can you speak a bit more about your initiative and decision to start the Overpopulation Podcast?
Dave Gardner 17:15
Sure. You know, one of the frustrations that I've long have continues to this day, is that the issue doesn't get proper treatment in the media. There are not enough news stories about it, and most of the time when journalists write or report on the issue, they're really sadly misinformed. So they perpetuate some of the myths. The general public is not getting the information and the perspective that they really need to get and they deserve to get. So, you know, I've continued to bang my head against the wall and try to find ways to bring journalists around. But at the same time, look at podcasts, podcasts is a way that we get the power in our own hands.
Nandita Bajaj 17:58
Yeah.
Dave Gardner 17:58
So why not become the media. Instead of just complaining about what the media is doing, I decided let's become the media. So we launched that podcast and I've never for a minute regretted it. It's one of my proudest accomplishments. I really do feel like the Overpopulation Podcast is really good, rock solid information and perspective to either turn people on to the subject or to help people kind of improve their literacy about the subject and, and find good ways to alert other people and educate them and inspire informed and fully considered family sized decisions.
Nandita Bajaj 18:35
Yeah, yeah. No, I'm you really should be proud of this accomplishment. You know, number one, podcasting is such an accessible and engaging way for people to consume information, especially the kind that's relevant to them. A lot of organizations do social media, webinars, campaigns, etc. You know, and all of them are excellent means of information sharing, but there's something so unique and personal about podcasting. You feel like you're eavesdropping on a great conversation. And it's something you can do pretty much anytime, anywhere, you know, you're walking, you're doing dishes, etc. And, you know, the one thing is you have to have the right skills to be able to pull it off. And luckily, you do.
Dave Gardner 19:20
A big mouth, I suppose. But, you know, there's a couple things you hit on there. One is that you can do it while you're doing other things. So it's one of the last places where people will dig deep. If you're trying to do videos on YouTube, you know, if the video's longer than two or three minutes, good luck keeping an audience.
Nandita Bajaj 19:39
Yeah.
Dave Gardner 19:39
People, if they're gonna watch a video, they pretty well have to stop everything else they're doing. But you can garden, you can exercise, you can commute and listen to these podcasts. Plus, we thought about well, who is the most important audience for this message? For trying to alert and educate and inspire action? Certainly there are a lot of audiences, you know, we we need journalists to understand this subject, we need policymakers to recognize the crisis. And there's something for everybody, there's a role for everyone in resolving the crisis. But of course, the most critical, final action that we're after is for young people to make informed family size decisions. And hopefully over the long haul, the average family size needs to be continuing to shrink and it needs to be shrinking faster. So if we're trying to reach a young audience, you know, you don't want to do a newspaper.
Nandita Bajaj 20:35
Yeah.
Dave Gardner 20:36
You know, where are the young people? You don't want to even be on the radio, you want to be doing a podcast that's where the young adults are. That's where they are. So that turned out to be pretty smart, too.
Nandita Bajaj 20:47
Yeah. And what a great way of just keeping on normalizing the conversation. You know, it really allows people to listen in wherever they are on their journey and get something out of it. So and I have to say, I'm so thrilled that you are going to continue doing this because I think without you the podcast will probably die.
Dave Gardner 21:06
Well, I have to disagree with you about that. But anyway, I'm not through with my rants and pontification. So I'll keep doing it as long as I'm, I'm welcome to do that. But you know what, sometimes I wonder if we wouldn't be, gosh, if just Joe Rogan would spend five or ten minutes on every episode talking about this issue, we might make greater strides in normalizing the fit, the small family meme or whatever you want to call it.
Nandita Bajaj 21:29
Well, Dave, when you retire, you're gonna have a little bit of extra time on your hands. And I hope you can start lobbying Joe Rogan.
Dave Gardner 21:38
I'll give it a shot perhaps, put it on my list.
Nandita Bajaj 21:40
So you started in 2015 with World Population Balance, what was the state of the population issue then when you took it over and how does it compare to where things are at now?
Dave Gardner 21:51
That's a great question. The, you know, it's only six years ago so you can't say that there's been a whole lot of change. But there has been some change. I think back then the population taboo was more firmly entrenched than it is today. I think the word overpopulation was rarely mentioned. If it was mentioned, it was just in relation to the population of deer or feral cats or something like that, it wasn't really related to human population much at all. I think the activist community was smaller, and they hadn't found each other. It was a lot more often that someone would say, "Wow, I didn't know anyone else cared about this," when they found World Population Balance or the podcast. So over the past six years, and I'm gonna sound like I'm tooting my own horn, but I really, genuinely believe this. And I've seen evidence that I think backs it up, that the work of World Population Balance has had a significant impact on the changes - the fact that the population taboo is dissolving. It's not completely gone, but it's going away, and that the discussion is happening more and more. Several more films have been made about the subject over the last ten years, and certainly the last six. And the activist community is a little more cohesive, and finding each other, World Population Balance has played a huge role in that. But there's still a lot of denial, avoidance, lack of awareness, myths, and misassumptions out there. There's still plenty of work for World Population Balance to do, but we have become a more of a global voice. It was a little bit provincial. You know, Dave Paxson was kind of an old fashioned kind of guy and he was a great public speaker, so he would talk to classes, high school, college, service clubs, churches. But that really kind of limited his influence to, you know, within a hundred miles of Minneapolis, Minnesota, where he founded the organization. And I just thought, "Wow, this issue is so important and the message that World Population Balance has, its global, it's so important that it needs to go global." So I think the organization definitely became a lot more virtual and more international and, and I think it's on the glide path it's on now is up, it's growing. It's growing stronger and I'm really excited about its future under newer, younger leadership.
Nandita Bajaj 24:21
Yeah, no, that's wonderful. I hadn't thought about that. But I think the fact that it became global is probably the reason that I became aware of it. I hadn't known about the organization for the longest time until I started, you know, hearing podcasts, and I am here in Canada. And I couldn't agree more with you that this message, choosing smaller families and helping to normalize the different types of families is so important, and especially for those of us who have the privilege of choice in industrialized countries, having the reach in a global way has a much larger impact.
Dave Gardner 25:04
I have said even in this episode that there's a role for everyone in solving the crisis. So it's important to educate everybody and alert everyone. And I'd be remiss if I didn't just kind of run down a checklist of what World Population Balance is doing, which is really pretty impressive considering the somewhat modest budget and very modest staff. You know, we've got two podcasts, the Overpopulation Podcast and You Had Me At Childfree. We've got three websites, a very robust online activist community, monthly virtual meetups, overpopulation update emails twice a month, the Ending Overshoot publication on Medium, occasional webinars, and plans for some other new things - billboard campaign in the past and in the future, as well. It's, it's amazing that the organization is doing that with a handful of part-time employees.
Nandita Bajaj 26:02
It is. It's very impressive. And you know, in large part, congratulations to you for being able to pull that off.
Dave Gardner 26:08
Yeah, I take full credit, that's all me. Not. And in fact, that really sparks an idea that is important to get across. And that is, wow, you know, I inherited, you know, a couple of part-time staff members who are still there. It didn't take me long to discover that Alan Ware and Carolyn VandenDolder were gems, they were just, they just have phenomenal knowledge of and passion about the subject, and give Dave Paxson full credit for educating them on the subject. And they're just a dream team. So they deserve a lot of the credit for what we've done over the last six years.
Nandita Bajaj 26:49
I've really enjoyed meeting them. And I love working with them on these, you know, roundtable conversations that we have.
Dave Gardner 26:55
Yeah, boy, I've had to really twist their arms to get them behind the microphone, but they are great. I don't think they realize how valuable their perspective is when we get them around the table.
Nandita Bajaj 27:05
I agree. And so, Dave, in terms of forward thinking, I know you're leaving. But do you have any hopes for the organization? What do you hope that the organization will look like in five years?
Dave Gardner 27:19
I do. But I also want to say, I hate to call it I'm leaving, because my hope is to stick around and butt in frequently and make the life of the new Executive Director pretty miserable, really, as the former guy. No. I'm determined to be available as a help and an advisor as invited. And if it's important for me to disappear, then I will. But otherwise, I want to do more writing and continue to help with the Ending Overshoot publication and the podcast. And so I'm, I'm, I'm not going to go away. Maybe I'll go away softly and slowly. I'm looking forward to finding out what new, younger leadership has in store for us. Because if I knew what we needed to be doing, then it would probably make sense for me to keep leading the organization. But you know, let's face it, I'm an old white guy. And we we have valuable knowledge and perspective, our thoughts shouldn't be dismissed just because we're old white guys, but I can understand why some people might be a little bit suspicious and cautious about our perspective. And so if there are younger, more diverse people out there, and especially women's voices, you know, I expect we'll hear more from younger, more diverse people as World Population Balance continues. I think, my hope is that the organization will become an even stronger voice for change around the world, you know, in five years, that it will be an organization that most journalists say, "Oh, we're doing a story about overpopulation? We must get in touch with World Population Balance and see what their leadership has to say about this." I think it would be great if in five years, there are a few more full-time professionals on staff.
Nandita Bajaj 29:07
Right.
Dave Gardner 29:08
I think that could help with that. So beyond that, I don't know. I can't wait to find out.
Nandita Bajaj 29:12
Well, we'll see. And a little plugin for the old white guys, because I owe a lot of my knowledge and inspiration to some amazing old white men and women and among, you know, many other people, but like you just said, I think everyone has a role to play in the movement. And I'm not a big fan of dismissing voices just because some people say they're not relevant.
Dave Gardner 29:36
Well, thanks for that. It's one of the things that I think made you such a good choice as a co-host for this podcast.
Nandita Bajaj 29:42
Thank you. So Dave, onto some fun questions. What action in your advocacy took the most courage?
Dave Gardner 29:51
You know, I think that's a tough one. And there might be two, maybe there's two answers. And one is just to become an advocate.
Nandita Bajaj 29:59
Right.
Dave Gardner 30:00
That took courage just because, you know, you do have to be a little bit bulletproof. You are setting yourself up. You're really, you know, I kind of joked about it a little bit that trying to get the world unhooked from its growth addiction is harder work than if you were to set out to convince the world that the Pope was the Antichrist. It would be easier to do that than it is to dethrone this worship of growth everlasting. So that was one thing, is just having the courage to stand up and say, "You know, I don't care that I'm going to be looked at like a crazy person by all the people who are addicted to growth and don't recognize what we're doing to the planet." But then secondarily, probably just last year, when the billboard campaign went big in Canada, in the country where you live, there was a pretty concerted effort by some to give that campaign a bad name and, you know, really cancel it. You know, the campaign was mischaracterized and, and accused of being what it wasn't. And, you know, once somebody starts that on Twitter, man that can really take off. And so it took some courage to go ahead and accept invitations to do news interviews even though I knew that the news out there, in many cases, was mischaracterizing the campaign.
Nandita Bajaj 30:09
Right. Yeah. And I also love your answer that just standing up to become an advocate is a very courageous thing to do. And you're not just advocating for environmentalism, for animal rights, for human rights, for, you know, other social justice issues. You've grabbed on to the most inconvenient, unpopular advocacy work, which is overpopulation. And so that in itself is a very courageous thing to do.
Dave Gardner 31:47
Yeah, I guess you're right about that. The only person with more courage is the person who married the crazy guy who is doing that. Sometimes I wonder how Ruth puts up with that, because I really, you know, in so many ways, doing this work is putting a target on your back.
Nandita Bajaj 32:06
Right.
Dave Gardner 32:06
But we know we're, gosh, we are, you know, what we're doing is we're, it's the most loving work. We are really doing the most compassionate work for the beautiful future that the children alive today and the children who may, if we're lucky to be alive, in future generations. They deserve to have a beautiful future. And without our work, they're not going to get that.
Nandita Bajaj 32:28
Yeah. Yeah, I agree, Dave. In fact, I mean, my own reason for getting involved in overpopulation work is because this is the one advocacy area that includes all other social justice issues. You know, for the most part in terms of human rights, in terms of animal protection, in terms of environmental preservation, you know, overpopulation makes all of those things much more difficult to address.
Dave Gardner 32:54
Yeah. And really, in a way, not just more difficult, but pretty much impossible.
Nandita Bajaj 32:58
Yeah.
Dave Gardner 32:59
In a lot of ways. Yeah.
Nandita Bajaj 33:00
Yeah. And I want to circle back to Ruth and your family. Do they think you're crazy?
Dave Gardner 33:07
I think they do, yeah. Most of the people close to me in my life, think I'm right. And in fact, my kids, I'm pretty confident, really respect and support what I'm doing. So I think I've become a really good role model and I'm proud of that. But I imagined that my mother and my wife would probably just celebrate, pop the champagne if I told them, yeah, not going to do that anymore.
Nandita Bajaj 33:34
Which is not going to happen.
Dave Gardner 33:35
Yeah, I guess there's, I was always the class clown. I'm a little bit of a ham. So clearly, I want attention for some reason. So I think I'm kind of enjoying the fact that I'm a little bit notorious here in my own community. I'm a little less notorious worldwide. I'm not that well known. You know what? A young lady was over at the house considering putting in a rain barrel to harvest rainwater to do a little bit of, you know, put that water to better use than just having a run down into the sewer system. And the young lady said, "Oh yeah, I know of you. I've heard about you. I've heard your podcasts." And that felt pretty good.
Nandita Bajaj 34:10
That's incredible.
Dave Gardner 34:11
Yeah.
Nandita Bajaj 34:12
Normally, you would hear someone from across the country say that to you. But in your own neighborhood, that's very cool.
Dave Gardner 34:17
So I have to confess that I think there's a little bit of me that the class clown just says, "That's great, I have an audience." But really, more important to me is just, you know, I want the attention because I want to save the planet. I want people to know what we're doing to the planet and how we can fix that.
Nandita Bajaj 34:31
Yeah, no, it's great to channel that kind of energy and motivation into doing good.
Dave Gardner 34:37
Might as well. In fact, I'm thinking about with a little bit more time on my hands, I might try to learn how to be a stand-up comic and do a stand up routine about these subjects.
Nandita Bajaj 34:47
Oh, wow. Well, you've you've received lots of compliments on your sense of humor so that seems like a nice route for you to follow.
Dave Gardner 34:56
We'll see. We'll see. Be careful what you wish for.
Nandita Bajaj 34:58
Well, don't make World Population Balance notorious with any kind of inappropriate jokes or we'll have to cut ties with you totally.
Dave Gardner 35:08
I've been warned.
Nandita Bajaj 35:11
And so Dave, in terms of all of the different people you've met along the way, in terms of interviews you've had and heroes you've, you know, had along the six years at World Population Balance, and then countless more years that you've been doing advocacy work, is there a person or an interview or a book that really changed your mind about, you know, something that you believe in?
Dave Gardner 35:39
That's a great question, thanks for that. There's not a yes answer to anybody who really caused me to, you know, slam on the brakes and take a right turn or a left turn except Brian Czech who founded and as the Executive Director of the Center for the Advancement of the Steady State Economy. He wrote a great book that I cannot recommend too highly called Shoveling Fuel for a Runaway Train. And that really woke me up when I was doing research about overpopulation. It woke me up to the fact that well, our numbers are half of the problem. The other half of the problem is our obsession with economic growth and our-
Nandita Bajaj 36:19
Right.
Dave Gardner 36:19
Pursuit of economic growth. That really woke me up to that. So I gotta give Brian Czech and Shoveling Fuel for a Runaway Train credit for that. You know, certainly I have some heroes. I don't think they changed my mind but they inspired me. Edward Abbey, Al Bartlett, the now late Al Bartlett, who's really world famous physicist at University of Colorado, famous for his lecture about exponential growth and bacteria. Al was certainly an inspiration. And of course, Paul Ehrlich. He's just a hero to me, because he, I know even to this day, he is vilified by growth pushers and mischaracterized. But he has, you know, this guy is approaching ninety and he is still out there, telling the truth. He's not afraid to tell the truth. He doesn't soft peddle it. And he does it in a interesting and engaging way. So interesting that I think it was what something like twenty-eight appearances on The Tonight Show with Johnny Carson.
Nandita Bajaj 37:22
Right.
Dave Gardner 37:23
You know, somebody's got to be interesting enough that they, talking about this, that they get those kinds of invitations. You know, we need Bill Maher to keep talking about this subject. Fortunately, he does some. We need Stephen Colbert to get religion about this. We need Trevor Noah. We've got some work to do because some of those, Jimmy Fallon, Jimmy Kimmel, I don't see Paul Ehrlich as a guest on their show. I haven't seen Dave Gardner as a guest on their show. So maybe our goal should be to get the next Executive Director of World Population Balance to be a regular on some of those late night, you know, used to call them comedy talk variety, but there are a lot, a lot of people get their news-
Nandita Bajaj 38:03
Yeah.
Dave Gardner 38:04
From those shows. So it'd be great if we could get on there. And I know I really got off on a tangent there. Apologies.
Nandita Bajaj 38:09
No, that would be a very cool goal to have. Is there an interview that you've always wanted to do but it hasn't come to fruition yet?
Dave Gardner 38:17
You know, it's funny, I think the interviews that are still on my thing we really got to get that list are with people who are not out there saying the right things about this subject. They're the people who, in my view, my humble opinion, have got it wrong. I would love to have George Monbiot, the UK Guardian columnist to continues to rage on in overpopulation denial and, and the shaming of sustainable population advocacy. I would love to get Garnett Genuis, the member of the Canadian House of Commons who railed against our billboard campaign and put ads on buses promoting large families, why can't we get him on? And, you know, let him tell us what his perspective is about that. The magazine editorial team at Sierra Club-
Nandita Bajaj 39:05
Yeah.
Dave Gardner 39:05
You know, who have engaged in population denial, I'd love to get them on. I'd love to have some open dialog. The woman who writes the Ask Umbra column at Grist. These are just some examples of people that we've invited to have on who are, you know, I don't know what the deal is.
Nandita Bajaj 39:23
Yeah.
Dave Gardner 39:23
They're afraid we're right. How could they sound intelligent if they came on? I don't know. I don't know.
Nandita Bajaj 39:29
Yeah, those are some excellent suggestions and great answers.
Dave Gardner 39:33
But there are some smart people that I have a lot of respect for that I'd love to have on to Greta Thunberg would be great. Bindi Irwin in Australia who has been, had the courage to speak up and write about overpopulation. I'd love to give the microphone to some of the young women who are getting it.
Nandita Bajaj 39:50
Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I wanted to say, you know, if you could actually get George Monbiot on the Overpopulation Podcast and, you know, have a real heart to heart conversation about where some of his, you know, fears of overpopulation are stemming from, it would do the world so much good.
Dave Gardner 40:11
Yeah. And you know, our approach would be respectful. You know, we're not going to invite anybody on just to trash them. If they continue to decline our invitations or ignore us, we might be a little less respectful.
Nandita Bajaj 40:22
Right.
Dave Gardner 40:23
Behind their back. I'd much rather have them on and most people have a good heart.
Nandita Bajaj 40:28
Yeah.
Dave Gardner 40:28
And so having more of these conversations can only be good for us all.
Nandita Bajaj 40:33
I agree. I agree. I think there is something to be said about why the denial is there in the first place. And I think that people who truly believe talking about overpopulation advocacy is bad. You know, some of them are coming from a place of fear. And you know, about things that have happened that weren't good in the past. But I think there is, like you're saying, room to move away from this kind of divisive talk.
Dave Gardner 40:58
Yeah, those fears are really founded and stuck in the past.
Nandita Bajaj 41:01
Yeah.
Dave Gardner 41:02
And if we, if you keep brushing the subject under the rug, then that allows the misassumptions and the and the handful of people with, you know, either ill intent or misguided intentions, it just allows them to kind of continue, instead of allowing them to become educated about how the modern sustainable population advocacy and action is none of the things that are feared.
Nandita Bajaj 41:30
Yes.
Dave Gardner 41:31
From the past.
Nandita Bajaj 41:32
Yes.
Dave Gardner 41:32
It's a beautiful thing. And having the world discover that it's being held back a little bit by people like George Monbiot.
Nandita Bajaj 41:40
So Dave, would you consider yourself generally hopeful for the future? Where would you fall on this spectrum of, you know, optimism and pessimism?
Dave Gardner 41:50
I will say that it's getting harder and harder to be hopeful. But I think I must be, or I'm not sure I would be working so hard at this. You know, there's some dignity in continuing this work, even if you're convinced that the end is near because it, you know, it's acting with integrity, nevertheless. But I think what gives me hope is that, you know, we could be, you know, there's talk about tipping points with relation to climate change. But this is a tipping point I want to talk about is just with regard to public attitudes and the public conversation. We might be closer than we think to a tipping point where suddenly, the world is really ready to acknowledge that there is an overpopulation crisis and to have open conversation about what it takes to address it. Because we really do need a global campaign to make sure everyone is alerted, to make sure that people are, have the power and the information to make really fully informed family size decisions, and that public policy isn't working against shrinking the global population back to a sustainable size. You know, kind of like the climate crisis really was not getting very much attention until Al Gore came out with that movie, An Inconvenient Truth. And while, you know, a year later, we still had a lot of problems, but global warming and climate change became household words. And overpopulation isn't there yet, but it might be right around the corner. So that gives me the hope that keeps firing my engines every day is that even though there's so much inaction today, you know, it could change over almost overnight.
Nandita Bajaj 43:33
Yeah. That's awesome. That is great. Wouldn't it be incredible for every single movement to consider overpopulation as one of the themes that they're trying to address in addition to the passion that they're advocating for?
Dave Gardner 43:51
Yeah. And it's just this irrational fear of historical, ugly, you know, things that are today are misassumptions and mischaracterizations that just don't apply today. So, you know, there's no good reason today for everyone to avoid including this on their list of must take care of.
Nandita Bajaj 44:10
Yeah.
Dave Gardner 44:10
This week. We must take care of this crisis today.
Nandita Bajaj 44:14
Yeah, and only good reasons to be talking about this.
Dave Gardner 44:18
Yep. There's not a single downside or drawback.
Nandita Bajaj 44:22
None. I agree. I agree. Especially the way in which, you know, we're approaching it with, you know, a humane, compassionate approach that truly liberates people and all living beings.
Dave Gardner 44:35
Yep.
Nandita Bajaj 44:36
All right. So I know we're running out of time, so I'm going to try wrapping it up with wanting to know what the next steps look like. So we all know you as the population and Growth Busters guy, what's Dave's life outside of advocacy work and what does post-World Population Balance life look like for you?
Dave Gardner 44:56
You know, that question forces me to admit that this work has really defined me. Largely. And maybe that's why I don't think I can just stop. I really love the outdoors, so I'm really hoping to spend more time hiking and camping and seeing the, some of the wonders of nature that we still have out there. And I'm looking forward to being able to spend a little bit more time promoting community in my own community. That's kind of been a little bit of a, of a sideline is trying to get the people in my hometown here in Colorado Springs better informed, better engaged, you know, get the microphone to more people who are doing good things. So I'm looking forward to having a little bit more time to do that. But But I really think the, the movement to solve the overpopulation crisis and the, you know, the crazy love affair with overconsumption and economic growth, I think it might benefit a little bit more from me being able to just kind of sit back and think longer and harder about what the world needs, you know, more strategically. I won't have my hands on the the yoke in the cockpit of the plane, I'll be, I will be on the ground looking at the radar and the weather forecast. And maybe thinking a little bit more strategically, I hope.
Nandita Bajaj 46:18
It's much needed time for you to take that step back and look at the big picture and you're the big ideas guy, and it'll be nice to have that time to innovate again with your mind and not have to worry about some of the practicalities of running an organization.
Dave Gardner 46:36
So we'll see, yeah. And the world of stand-up comedy might change.
Nandita Bajaj 46:44
I'll be there rooting for you.
Dave Gardner 46:46
Thank you, I will insist that you're in the audience.
Nandita Bajaj 46:51
Well, I'm ready to end, Dave, if you are. Was there anything that that I've left off?
Dave Gardner 46:56
I think it's been a pretty thorough conversation. I'm really pretty uncomfortable spinning out an hour talking about me. But it's been nice to have a chance to rant and, and rave a little bit about some of my pet peeves. So thanks for that. I just want to say, just in case I get fired from my job of co-host of the Overpopulation Podcast. So far, Nandita, it's been such a pleasure to have you almost across the table as a partner and that I hope that we get to continue doing that. And I also want to say, I am so thrilled and excited about the new Executive Director who will be stepping in in May to assume the leadership role at World Population Balance. You know, look out world, you thought it was a wild ride with Dave Gardner at the yolk, just wait til you see what our new Executive Director has in store. And you know, I haven't been able to name that person because we are trying to sort of do a big announcement, closer to the time that the reins are handed over. And we're right around the corner from that.
Nandita Bajaj 47:58
Well, Dave, it's been such a pleasure talking to you today. And also just being a partner co-hosting this with you. Thank you for inspiring me to join World Population Balance and to invite me to be your co-host. It's been a thrill ride so far. And I do hope that we continue to keep this on.
Dave Gardner 48:17
Well, thanks for what you've done so far.
Nandita Bajaj 48:19
Thank you. And I do feel like we've really just scratched the surface of of all your accomplishments and what you've brought to the table and, you know, excited to keep learning more about it. But this sure was fun. Thank you so much for your tireless efforts as the Executive Director for over the past six years and countless more years working towards a sustainable future for our planet.
Dave Gardner 48:42
You are welcome. You know, and on the subject of the next Executive Director, look for an announcement about that in early May. And the next podcast, our hope is, to be a chance to get to know the new Executive Director. So the next episode of the Overpopulation Podcast will be much more important than this one.
Nandita Bajaj 49:02
It'll be fun.
Dave Gardner 49:02
Yeah, that'll be great. Okay, so we'd like to close these with with a quote, and the quote I've got for us today is from the young Pakistani activist Malala Yousafzai. And this quote is my dream is for every girl to choose her own future. And kind of paired with that, I also want to share that Malala also said, "You'll never know who stands with you if you don't stand up first."
Nandita Bajaj 49:31
That's such a powerful quote and lines up so well with our mission. Wouldn't it be incredible to have her on the podcast?
Dave Gardner 49:40
Yep. Put her on the shortlist, absolutely.
Nandita Bajaj 49:42
Well, so Malala if you're out there listening, we'd love to have you on, please reach out to us. Well, that's it for this edition of the Overpopulation Podcast. Thank you, Dave, for your candor on this episode and for everything that you've done so far for World Population Balance and for the planet.