Meet the New Executive Director of World Population Balance

May 11

New Executive Director and podcast co-host Nandita Bajaj shares her brief history and the evolving path that led her to becoming a sustainable population advocate. Former Executive Director Dave Gardner interviews Nandita her about her plans for World Population Balance and why she is dedicating her life to this cause. Nandita shares her perspectives of the tightly woven links between pronatalism, anthropocentrism and human overpopulation and why our growing human enterprise is one of the most pressing planetary justice issues of our time. A passionate advocate for minimalism, veganism, and childfree living, Nandita speaks about the joy of living simply in communion with all life on our planet. Dave and Nandita also share their excitement about continuing as the co-hosts of the podcast.

MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE

Dave Gardner 00:00
Nandita, did you know World Population Balance has a new Executive Director?
Nandita Bajaj 00:04
I have heard something to that effect, Dave.
Dave Gardner 00:06
Yeah, I figured. Well, we'll get to know that new Executive Director next. Welcome to the Overpopulation Podcast, the podcast that tells the truth about the role of human numbers in crushing our planet, and what we can do about it. I'm your co-host, Dave Gardner, former Executive Director of World Population Balance.
Nandita Bajaj 00:35
And I'm Nandita Bajaj, co-host of the podcast, and the new Executive Director of World Population Balance.
Dave Gardner 00:41
What? Newsflash, you're the one?
Nandita Bajaj 00:45
That's right.
Dave Gardner 00:46
Our illustrious co-host?
Nandita Bajaj 00:49
I think by now most people have found out over the last couple of weeks.
Dave Gardner 00:53
That's true, we had a few leaks that we did, sort of intentionally to VIPs. And of course, made the official announcement last week, so this may be old news to some people. But it doesn't change the fact that I am just really excited. I don't think we could have possibly scoured the planet any harder and found anybody more qualified and gives me more hope for the movement of achieving a sustainable human population on this planet. Some hope for success.
Nandita Bajaj 01:24
Thank you, Dave. And you know that I'm over the moon about this. There's nothing else in the world that I'd rather be doing than be leading this amazing organization that you've left in such a wonderful place.
Dave Gardner 01:36
Very cool. Very cool. Well, it's also a little bittersweet, I think it's gonna be hard for me to let go of what I've been doing. I think I'm a little bit of a control freak. So good luck with that.
Nandita Bajaj 01:46
Well, takes one to know one, so.
Dave Gardner 01:52
Anyway, I think people are going to be tempted to think this episode of the podcast is all about us, all about World Population Balance, or all about you. But you know, certainly it's a chance for people to get to know you. But I think it is so much more. It is really about leadership in the world on this cause, and where you're going to take it because you're two things. One is you're just a natural born leader and you've got really great knowledge and passion for the subject and great sensibilities, but you're also taking the reigns of World Population Balance that's really respected around the world for what it's been doing in this cause.
Nandita Bajaj 02:27
Thank you, Dave. And it truly is an honor to be taking over.
Dave Gardner 02:31
Right. Well, if you're new to this podcast, you might want to check out World Population Balance, the nonprofit that is behind it, you can learn all about it at worldpopulationbalance.org.
Nandita Bajaj 02:41
All right, Dave. Before we begin, what's noteworthy from the inbox today?
Dave Gardner 02:46
Well, there are a couple of emails I'd like to share commenting on our last episode in which you grilled me as the outgoing Executive Director of World Population Balance. Robert in California wrote, hi Nandita and Dave. Once again, great job on today's Earth Day show. Consistent with your hypothesis that these podcasts are something we listeners can do while exercising, I have grown quite fond of plugging into them during my mountain bike rides through the hills of Santa Barbara here, and today was no exception. Suffice it to say, your passion and humor make the uphill portions seem not as steep. Thanks and keep it up. It's hard to imagine how the new Executive Director can do any better at steering World Population Balance, unless, of course, it's Nandita. Thanks again.
Nandita Bajaj 03:35
Wow.
Dave Gardner 03:36
How about that. We had to share that one because jeez, somebody else is tooting my horn and yours.
Nandita Bajaj 03:41
Yes.
Dave Gardner 03:41
In one email.
Nandita Bajaj 03:43
Thanks, Robert.
Dave Gardner 03:44
Yeah, that's pretty neat. And how cool is it that we have another purpose for this podcast, which is to make your uphill mountain bike climbs that much easier.
Nandita Bajaj 03:53
Proof is in the pudding, right? What we were saying about podcasts and the wonderful sense of humor that you bring to them, which I'm so glad that you will continue to do with me.
Dave Gardner 04:04
Well, we'll see. We'll see if you can put, how long you can put up with me. We have one more short email I'd like to share, another Californian in this case, Pam, wrote, just listened to the last podcast. Thanks, Dave, for all you've done for the world, and for Growth Busters and World Population Balance. I look forward to your stand-up routine. I've been thinking that we need a few comedians to promote our message.
Nandita Bajaj 04:27
Well, that makes me and Pam that'll definitely be rooting for you.
Dave Gardner 04:31
You may be the only ones, but now I've, now I've made the promise so I better deliver. Let's say by New Year's. Let's see if I don't have a stand-up routine.
Nandita Bajaj 04:42
Thanks so much for writing to us. As always, if you have any feedback or if there's a topic you would like to address on the podcast, send an email to podcast@worldpopulationbalance.org.
Dave Gardner 04:53
Alright, well now to the main event where we are going to turn the tables this episode and we are going to grill you, Nandita Bajaj, until you're well done, very well done.
Nandita Bajaj 05:03
Well, as long as I'm alongside a Beyond Meat vegan burger, I will take the challenge.
Dave Gardner 05:12
It's so funny because when I said that I knew she's gonna, just gonna go there, she's gonna be thinking about what is Dave throwing on the grill? Because you are a great advocate for plant-based diets. So thank you for that.
Nandita Bajaj 05:23
Sure.
Dave Gardner 05:24
Let's get on with it. Let's get to know the new Executive Director of World Population Balance. First of all, tell us, you know, what are your intense passions in life?
Nandita Bajaj 05:34
Well, Dave, the one that's been occupying my mind for, say, the last four to five years is really the overpopulation issue. It's something I've been aware of for a long time, for about fifteen years, but it's really over the last few years that I've become really passionate about it. And I've made it into my life's goal to advocating for a sustainable population and alerting people about the impacts of overpopulation on the planet. You know, we already know about the environmental degradation, but how our increasing numbers are impacting impinging on human rights, you know, and animal protection, and, you know, that's something that I really want to dedicate the rest of my life bringing attention to. And combined with that, I've become deeply interested in helping to, liberating people from the pressures that they experience around having kids, and really allow people to make that decision for themselves, free from all types of psychological or social pressure. And to, you know, have them make an informed decision about the impacts the implications of having children on the planet.
Dave Gardner 06:55
Yeah, you've talked about that a few times. You've hinted that you might even be able to just give us a whole episode where you really dig into that. And you could probably do it all on your own, because I think you have kind of, what's for me, a little bit of an unusual perspective about the tyranny of that social pressure.
Nandita Bajaj 07:11
Right. Yeah, I see the two things, you know, overpopulation and the social pressures to have children, whether it's from religion, whether it's from governments, family, corporations, media. It's so pervasive that it's almost like you're a fish in the water, and you can't see water. And I feel that, you know, that really prevents people, I know it was my personal experience, from making true authentic decisions about examining, you know, is it really their true desire to want to have children? Or is it something that they think they should do, because they're at a certain point in their lives? And, you know, I think that ties quite intimately to the overpopulation issue. Because, you know, if that's something a lot of us are feeling pressure to do, then addressing overpopulation becomes an uphill battle, because it feels like you are trying to take away something from people that they think they should be doing. That may almost be an unexamined belief.
Dave Gardner 08:19
Well, we certainly don't want it to be an uphill battle. That's not what you signed up for.
Nandita Bajaj 08:25
Well, I'm gonna be here for the long run, whatever it takes.
Dave Gardner 08:31
Well, speaking of the long run, how long have you been aware of the amount of destructive pressure that humanity is putting on the planet? When did you first become aware of that?
Nandita Bajaj 08:40
Yeah, I'm not sure, Dave, if I can pinpoint about when that shift in my awareness happened and how exactly, but I think there were a series of threads in my life growing up that have heavily informed my understanding, and also my proclivity to social justice. I grew up in India until my late teens, so I had some level of subconscious awareness that life, you know, as I had grown to see around me, was very unfair. There was and there continues to be a huge disparity in India based on socioeconomic class, gender, religion. I don't think I really understood just how massive some of those issues were. You know, I was only a teenager when my family and I moved to Canada, and that was over twenty years ago. But I think it's more the juxtaposition of what I saw when I moved to Canada. And what I got to experience, you know, to see what a more stable democratic society looks like. It really allowed me to reflect back and think about just how bad the situation was. I was so close to it. I mean, I didn't grow up in, you know, a terrible situation. My family was, you know, not wealthy, but comfortable. So I fortunately did not get to experience a lot of the hardships that I saw people experiencing around me. But I definitely got a good dose of an understanding after moving here and mind you, you know, after being here for so many years, I've come to see many other sources of injustice here, towards people, towards animals, even in rich nations. But you know, that's for a different conversation.
Dave Gardner 10:31
Yeah. And we'll probably have to circle back to some of this at some point, too. Was it immediately clear to you that human numbers played a role in those problems that you were observing? Or was that a little bit later in life that you became aware of that?
Nandita Bajaj 10:44
Yeah, that one is a tricky one. Because, you know, on the first hand, I grew up in India. You know, it is the second most populous country in the world, so I did.
Dave Gardner 10:54
Hard to miss, right? Hard to miss, there's a lot of people there.
Nandita Bajaj 10:57
Totally. And I did, I mean, I saw firsthand the sheer volume of humanity around me, you know, but if that's all you see around you, that becomes your normal, and you don't really know what else is out there. And you don't really see that as a problem, even though you see problems all around you, you know, as I spoke about the disparity, and the inequity, and the suffering of the people that were living around me, and the substandard living conditions that so many of the people were experiencing, again, due to the sheer volume of people. And that was a stark difference moving to Canada and looking at, you know, how not very populated Canada seems. There are large swaths of empty land and, you know, there's a lot more order in terms of how things are run. But in terms of making the true connection, it didn't really happen until I met Mike, my now husband, about fifteen years ago. And as we were becoming more serious in our relationship, we started having conversations about next steps, you know, the most important decisions, and he had studied world issues and environmental studies. And, you know, he had made a decision early on in his life that he was not going to have kids, even before meeting me. And, you know, for him, it was really about addressing overpopulation. So, you know, I'm sure we'll get into this a little bit more later, but that was, for me, a watershed moment. Because when we both met, we were both heavily interested in social justice issues and environmental advocacy. And, you know, for some reason, I had failed to make the connection that human overpopulation is one of the biggest social justice issues that we are experiencing, you know, at this time.
Dave Gardner 12:55
So you've shared a little bit about your background, but you've had a pretty varied background, in fact, kind of done an about face didn't you start out professionally as an aerospace engineer?
Nandita Bajaj 13:04
I was, you know, right after high school, I was trying to figure out what I wanted to do. And I was, at that time, really fascinated by airplanes, and spacecraft, and space travel. And I happen to be good at math and science. So I decided to pursue a career in, you know, something that combined both of those. And aerospace engineering was an amazing program that was available at a local university here. So I decided to study that. And it was fascinating and interesting, you know, and I ended up working in an aerospace corporation for a few years, only to realize that, you know, it wasn't really what I was looking for. I think it was more of a whim that I had when I was younger, that you know, airplanes are cool. So let's go and study more about that. But I think as I started becoming more aware of social issues around me, I started to really find working in engineering wasn't really doing it for me. And, yeah, so as you said, I've changed careers a couple of times, I went back to school, got a teaching degree. And I taught math and physics for about seven years. Again, really, really enjoyed it, loved being with students. And it was definitely closer to, you know, what I wanted to do, it was a lot more satisfying as a career. And I think same thing is, you know, as I keep evolving, my interests are evolving, and I want to do something, you know, get closer to something deeper, you know, a deeper yearning that I have to make a difference. And so I moved into nonprofit management at an independent school working in administration, and that's what I've been doing for the last five years. And again, that's been fascinating and very interesting, and I've, you know, loved what I've done so far. But I feel that with each career change that I've done, I've come closer to realizing what my purpose is, to finally ending up here, which-
Dave Gardner 13:11
Ready to save the planet.
Nandita Bajaj 15:15
Which is, I think, what I was meant to do all along. This is what it feels like if I look back at, you know, the last fifteen years of my life and everything that I've been working towards, it feels like I was preparing myself for this moment.
Dave Gardner 15:33
That's cool. Cool. So that makes me think it wasn't a difficult decision then to decide to step into a leadership role in the sustainable population movement, was it hard to make that choice?
Nandita Bajaj 15:43
Not at all, it was actually the opposite. I've actually felt there's been, you know, a level of synchronicity at play here. You know, like I said, all of these different careers, I just felt they were wonderful at the time I was doing them, but by the end of it, I just felt like it wasn't quite it. I needed to be more involved as an advocate, as an educator, to be making real difference in society and making things better for people, for animals, for the planet. And all of the different things that I did were helping in some small, little way. But then I found this job opportunity come up. And, you know, this is something that I've been delving quite deeply into for the last four or five years, is becoming increasingly more interested in raising awareness about the overpopulation issue, including, you know, starting my graduate degree a few years ago, at the Institute for Humane Education, where I've done a deep dive into overpopulation and looking at the issue of overpopulation from, you know, this intersectional lens of how it impacts human rights, animal protection, environmental preservation. And, as you know, it was through that program that I came to you, you know, looking for some real life experience in the field as an intern, and you know, and then the job opportunity came up. And I felt like there was providence at play or something, something trying to - the universe conspiring to line all of this up.
Dave Gardner 17:25
Yeah, I just love it when the planets align like that.
Nandita Bajaj 17:27
Yeah.
Dave Gardner 17:28
There was just, it was like, no head scratching was necessary.
Nandita Bajaj 17:32
That's what it feels like, it feels effortless. And I feel like I'm exactly where I'm supposed to be at a time, you know, when when I feel ready for it, at a time when you feel, you know, you've given so much to the organization and you feel ready to pull back a little bit. It just really felt like things fell into place. And I'm thrilled.
Dave Gardner 17:53
That's great. That's great. Alright, so let's talk about the issue a little bit. What needs to be happening in the world to bring human numbers back to a sustainable level? And what's keeping that from happening? And what do you hope to do about that? In thirty words or less?
Nandita Bajaj 18:09
Oh, that's such an easy one. I don't even need thirty words. There's just, you know, one answer. You know, you take care of capitalism, get rid of greed, patriarchy, speciesism, xenophobia, you know, religious pressure, social pressures, pronatalism, and on and on.
Dave Gardner 18:29
Well then what are you going to do next month?
Nandita Bajaj 18:30
Exactly, I think if you could just tone all those down a little bit, we're, you know, we'd be in a good place. So that's it, problem solved. I mean, I don't know, you know, in all seriousness, I don't know exactly how to answer that. There are so many different approaches to addressing the overpopulation issue. And, you know, so many different incredible organizations are handling the issue in unique and creative ways. And if there's one thing we know about overpopulation is that it's a multifaceted issue. There's no one solution, really, you know, so depending on where you are, you'll have to use a different framework, a different approach to help people understand the issue, and help people, you know, move towards, you know, solving the issue. I mean, we know, you know, even being in the same country, two different states or provinces, or towns or villages, will respond very differently to this issue. And my sense is in my particular sphere of influence, you know, where I'm surrounded by more progressive, social justice minded folks. I think the discussion for me would need to be centered around reproductive responsibility. You know, what are the implications of having a child today? For the child who is inheriting this mess, for the animals that are being displaced by that choice, for other vulnerable people who are becoming climate refugees for example, and so on. So I think that would be the conversation I'd like to have more of, especially given, you know, where we're trying to have the most influence, which is in North America.
Dave Gardner 20:25
Well you brought up reproductive responsibility, makes me think maybe I should give you a chance to talk a little bit about reproductive rights, reproductive justice, and reproductive responsibility, which is a phrase you don't hear very often. Is it fair to ask for your thoughts on that? Or do we need another entire episode to deal with that?
Nandita Bajaj 20:46
I'd be happy to share a few thoughts. You know, I'm definitely not a scholar on the issue, but...
Dave Gardner 20:52
Oh, thank goodness. Then you couldn't be a podcast co-host. You'd be a snoozer.
Nandita Bajaj 21:00
That's right.
Dave Gardner 21:01
Just kidding.
Nandita Bajaj 21:03
Yeah, so you know, very briefly, reproductive freedom is any person to have full agency over their reproductive choices, over their bodies. And, you know, when it comes to reproductive freedom, my sense is, there's this assumption that in our countries and industrialized countries, or rich nations, that we have already accomplished reproductive freedom, that were already there. And then it's mainly developing countries that are experiencing a lack of reproductive freedom, whether there's little or none at all for women to make choices, or for people to make choices for their bodies. But, you know, I would like to take the opportunity to emphasize that even here, you know, within our own countries, there are a lot of people who have and continue to be marginalized, in terms of lack of contraceptive care. There's been a history, for example of forced sterilizations not always done in the context of population control. But important to mention that, you know, that kind of thing is still happening. And there's mainly, you know, black or Indigenous people or people of color who have experienced that kind of barriers to true reproductive freedom. So, you know, I would say that any conversation around reproductive freedom has to acknowledge that there are so many people who still don't have that. And that, you know, we in the movement, it's our responsibility to continue to fight for that, as we are encouraging people to take reproductive responsibility when they do have that freedom. I don't know if that makes sense.
Dave Gardner 22:56
That does, but it definitely makes me want to know what is reproductive responsibility.
Nandita Bajaj 23:00
So again, not a scholar, I'm, this is just, you know, a few thoughts that I have. But if you are in that group of people who truly have full reproductive autonomy, full reproductive choice, then I'd say that given the state of the planet today, where we are with human overpopulation wiping out species at an alarming rate, you know, it being actually a threat to all life on Earth, our reproductive decisions play a pivotal role in turning the ship around. And, you know, it's a privilege to have full reproductive freedom because it's something people have fought for for a very long time. So, I think with privilege comes responsibility. And I would say that, just like, we think about a few preconditions before we have children, like, you know, are we financially stable? Are we emotionally stable? Is this a good time, you know, for us to bring a child into our life? I think the planetary health needs to become another factor that people think about before having kids. It truly should be an informed decision, and to understand the implications of bringing another human, you know, on that human being, on that child that's born into the world today, on the community at large, and on the planet. So, you know, and the other part would be, I would, you know, like, for all people to participate in that reproductive decision-making for it not to be purely the responsibility on women, but as you've been such a, you know, huge proponent of men taking, you know, more responsibility in that arena. I would say that everyone needs to be involved in that kind of decision-making.
Dave Gardner 24:59
Okay, well, I think it might be time to flip you over on the grill so we don't burn one side. Let's, let's see if we can get you cooked through and through, now that we have you in the hot seat.
Nandita Bajaj 25:11
Thanks for that analogy.
Dave Gardner 25:12
I hope you're enjoying it. I can't wait to find out the answer to this question. And another unfair question, what differences might we see at World Population Balance under your leadership?
Nandita Bajaj 25:24
Well, Dave, the first thing I would do is to replace the wallpaper in the Executive Director's office. Who in their right mind would choose a floral print?
Dave Gardner 25:40
Which which wing of the executive office are you talking about?
Nandita Bajaj 25:42
It's the corner unit. Well, I'm joking, obviously, as here I am working out of my little condo in Toronto.
Dave Gardner 25:54
And no wallpaper.
Nandita Bajaj 25:55
No wallpaper. But, you know, it makes me think that looking back at the history of World Population Balance, you know, when it started with Dave Paxson, you know, he was mainly working in Minneapolis. And you know, and then you took over the reins about six years ago, and you are no longer doing local work. You were in Colorado Springs, and you were suddenly expanding the reach that you were having with your work, especially, you know, with podcasts reaching people all around the world. So, you know, and now World Population Balance has taken yet another step into expansion. So, you know, taking me in from Toronto, Canada, you know, I see one of the more obvious changes would be just having a broader reach, and really expanding into all of North America, not just the states. Some of the things, you know, I can see, you know, right away would be connecting more with younger generations, high school students, post-secondary institutions. You know, there seems to be some traction and an understanding about the planetary crisis.
Dave Gardner 25:55
Yeah.
Nandita Bajaj 25:55
Right? I mean, something we spoke about even during our last episode, that this generation is growing up with a heightened awareness about social justice issues. And they aren't as attached to the life script that you and I have both chatted about, you know, university, marriage, kids, mortgage, retirement, etc.
Dave Gardner 27:33
Treadmill.
Nandita Bajaj 27:34
The treadmill. And I'm already seeing so many younger people that are foregoing a lot of these traditions, like marriage, or having kids, homeownership, car ownership. So I feel there's already some opening there to wanting to do things differently. They're not as attached to the same traditions, you know, or the same pressures. So I see, you know, a great opportunity to leverage that interest and that willingness to help alert them about the overpopulation issue and bring them on board to become partners and advocates for this movement. Some of the other things I've been thinking about, especially being in a somewhat non-traditional family structure, you know, my husband and I don't have kids, we adopted a dog and that's, you know, our family - is really looking at redefining what family means. You know, society has been evolving drastically, you know, traditionally, we have looked at for example, a small family to be, you know, a man and a woman with a child. That would be the ideal family size. But if you even look at other possible structures, a small family could be a couple, it could be a single person with a companion animal, it could be, you know, a single person who identifies their family as a group of friends, or friends who are co-parenting. I mean, society is evolving so rapidly and drastically in that way. You know, I see room to include so many more types of family structures in our discussions. There's this place where I volunteer, it's a farmed animal sanctuary in Toronto. It's called Happily Ever Esther Farm Sanctuary. It's run by two dads, it's a same sex couple, and they consider themselves fathers to the seventy farmed animals that they've adopted. And, you know, when I look at them, I would say, well, they're not a small family, they're a family of seventy-two! You know, but I would call them a small impact family, you know, they didn't have their own biological kids. So, in that way, you know, I think if someone for example, decides to forego procreation and decides to adopt four children, that would be not a small family, but a small impact family. You know, those people have chosen not to bring more humans into the world.
Dave Gardner 30:10
Small impact family. I like that, has a ring to it.
Nandita Bajaj 30:13
Yeah!
Dave Gardner 30:14
I think you've partly answered this question. But maybe there's more. Is it important, is it valuable that we're finally getting rid of this cranky old guy, Dave Gardner, and we are bringing in somebody much younger? Are you bringing a perspective that we've been missing?
Nandita Bajaj 30:31
I really, I wouldn't look at it as something that's been missing. I just think you've brought the organization to such a robust and stable place. And it's exactly what it needed at the time. And it's, you know, you are leaving it in such a beautiful place that all I think that I would be bringing is my perspective from my lived experience, which is not necessarily better from your, your experiences, it's just different. You know, it's just you taking over from Dave Paxson, and you brought something completely new to the organization, and I'm hoping I'd be, you know, able to do the same. You know, and the other thing I think I bring, you know, again, partly due to my most recent experiences and education with my grad program, at the Institute for Humane Education, I've kind of learned to look through this lens of, you know, the three pillars of humane education. And it's the kind of thing once you learn it, you just you can't unlearn it. It becomes a part of you, is to to look at all these issues from the interconnectivity between human rights, animal protection, environmental preservation, and how they truly are an interconnected web. And one arena almost always feeds into another one, they really aren't separate issues. And overpopulation tends to touch upon all three. So you know, that piece, you know, I'm excited about bringing more to the forefront. We talk a lot about environmental degradation and human rights and, you know, I'd like to emphasize the role that overpopulation plays on the exploitation of animals and all the other species that often get left out of the conversation.
Dave Gardner 32:27
You've mentioned social justice several times. So is there going to be some additional connective tissue there that you're going to bring?
Nandita Bajaj 32:34
Sometimes I think there's a fallacy in thinking that overpopulation is the root cause of all social justice issues. You know, I don't think that addressing overpopulation is a silver bullet solution. And, you know, we've talked about that. It's one of the many root causes of a lot of social justice issues. And it absolutely makes a lot of social justice issues infinitely harder to address. But, you know, there are issues like racism, homophobia, speciesism, economic disparity, reproductive injustice which we just spoke about, you know, so many, too many to name, but those things need their own advocacy. You know, aside from overpopulation, people aren't going to stop becoming racist or homophobic, you know, just if we have fewer people.
Dave Gardner 33:28
Yeah.
Nandita Bajaj 33:29
But human overpopulation perpetuates human rights violations, animal exploitation, environmental degradation. It really does bleed into all three areas.
Dave Gardner 33:42
You mentioned that you and your husband, Mike, chose to be childfree. Really, that's the ultimate, the most minimalist lifestyle decision you can make right there. But you also are minimalists in other ways, right? Tell us a little bit about that.
Nandita Bajaj 33:56
Yeah, the childfree one was an interesting one. When Mike and I met, I was on this treadmill path myself, Dave, kind of like you, where I had imagined that I would go on to have two kids because that's what the norm was. Growing up, you know, there were people around me who would express desires to become parents or to have kids, you know, in their teenage years. But I had never really felt a single iota of interest in becoming a parent or to experience pregnancy. And I kind of just felt like this was an inevitability. It just had to happen. I was just going to have to have two kids, and that I'd have to work around that decision to, you know, make all my other aspirations come alive.
Dave Gardner 34:49
Wow, interesting.
Nandita Bajaj 34:50
Yeah. I mean, talk about the pervasive nature of these social pressures. I did not see, growing up, anyone who didn't have children. So I really had no role models to be inspired from. So, you know, I was in my mid-twenties, and I was kind of kept pushing it off. Like, I just don't want to think about it because it's not something I want. But I guess I have to. And when we both met, we both had inclinations toward, you know, social justice advocacy, and we wanted to do good work in the world. And when we had that first conversation about, you know, Mike talking about the overpopulation issue and how it's a severe environmental issue, which is an area I was interested in, for me, it was like a watershed moment when when he said, "Hey, you know, what do you think about not having kids?" And I cannot tell you, I don't think I've arrived at a decision as fast as I as I arrived at that one.
Dave Gardner 36:00
It was a relief I bet, huh?
Nandita Bajaj 36:02
It was such a relief. I was just like, "You mean, that's possible? Yes!" You know, and I've, I've never looked back. It was definitely the right decision for us and I am grateful for the wherewithal, the privilege of having choice, you know, at a time when I didn't even think I had choice. And to have made that choice. Because we know so many people who, you know, may have the choice but don't really know, at a deep level, that it's theirs to make.
Dave Gardner 36:37
That is so cool that you bring that perspective, because for the most part, men do not feel the pressure and the expectation like women do. And so this is definitely a perspective Dave Gardner can bring to the table. So good move for World Population Balance to bring you in.
Nandita Bajaj 36:53
Yeah. And the second part of that question, Dave, you'd asked me was about minimalism. That's something that has been a common trait that we've shared since before we met each other. Among many other things. It was kind of funny, because I, you know, when I was living on my own, I used to take a lot of pride in getting by with very little, and, you know, had a tiny wardrobe, I had this one jacket that I would wear through fall, winter, and spring, and I had a great job, and it wasn't a matter of not being able to afford things. It was just, I did not want to have a big impact. And you know, it would drive my dad nuts, because he just couldn't understand why I was being so frugal. But you know, again, it wasn't really about the money.
Dave Gardner 37:43
You weren't saving up to buy a private jet?
Nandita Bajaj 37:45
I wasn't. So I can't really pinpoint where I picked up that sensibility. But I've had that, I've been like that since my late teens. And part of it, it might sound a bit cheesy, but I share my birthday with Gandhi. So I felt a kind of affinity to him. And it's a big deal in India. He's quite revered by most, not by everyone. He was a minimalist, and so I was much impacted by his philosophy. And I'd also grown up with a phrase that my mum used to use quite often was simple living and high thinking. And it was kind of a thread throughout, of living a simple life, but really engaging, you know, your mind to do creative things. And then when I met Mike, he had very similar sensibilities. He was surprisingly also really influenced by Gandhi. And one of the funny stories I have of, you know, in the first couple of years of meeting, we got married three years after we met. And we had a very low-impact wedding. We got married in his parent's backyard. Nobody flew for the wedding. We kept it really tiny. But the best part was that, you know, my dad wanted to take Mike for suit shopping to have like a wedding suit. And he said, he said, "I've got I've got a suit from ten years ago that still fits, and I'll just wear that." And my dad got such a kick out of it because he said that's when he knew he, you know, that I had met my match. So, I mean, you know, that stuff aside, as a couple, we try to live a very low impact life. We take it very seriously. Other than being childfree, you know, we live in a condo, we are both vegan, our dog is vegan. We stopped flying about four years ago. We don't own a car. And it's, in a big way, become part of our identity, you know, who we are. And it might all sound like a big sacrifice, you know, that we're just constantly giving things up. But it's quite the opposite. There is such a sense of freedom and abundance by not having so much to engage with.
Dave Gardner 40:06
I want to intervene here and just let our listeners know that we are not determined to make this episode as long as the academy awards that were just held two weeks ago, which were a real snooze fest, sadly. This is already way better than the Oscars this year. They better do better next year. But I still do have a couple of important questions, so no time pressure whatsoever Nandita. And you want to get this one, right. What mistakes has Dave Gardner made that you'll be quick to correct as you take the wheel at World Population Balance?
Nandita Bajaj 40:41
Oh no, you're really putting me on the spot now. And it's Dave Gardner that's asking me this question. So that's not uncomfortable at all. Well, Dave, other than your wallpaper choice, which I've talked about. It's a little awkward to do this on air. But I think the podcast will be the next thing to go. In fact, this might be our last one, everyone.
Dave Gardner 41:07
OMG.
Nandita Bajaj 41:10
We are just kidding, of course, Dave's podcasts have been the best part about World Population Balance. And it's what brought me in, and I'm a poster child for the podcast. I was a fan of your podcast for so many years and now I'm the Executive Director. So you've done such an exceptional job at bringing world population balance to where it is. And I actually feel privileged and honored to be taking this over from you and to be filling your shoes. And I really don't think there are any mistakes that need to be corrected. You know, as I spoke earlier, I think I'll just be building on this incredible momentum that you've created. And it'll just be an evolution.
Dave Gardner 41:55
Well, I don't have to remind you that I'm out, you're in, and you don't have to schmooze me anymore.
Nandita Bajaj 42:02
Well.
Dave Gardner 42:02
Thanks for the kind words that you have said. Going forward, so if you're not going to cancel the podcast, at least not anytime soon, are there some interviews that you would really like to see us do?
Nandita Bajaj 42:15
I mean, this is something I think about all the time, ever since I started co-hosting with you is, you know, who could be the next guest? So I've got a couple of ideas. You know, one is Zoe Weil. She is the co-founder and the President of the Institute for Humane Education, which is, you know, where I'm doing my grad studies. But she is a big reason why I was able to take such a deep dive into overpopulation, and even offer a graduate level course on the subject. She gets it, she gets, you know, the overpopulation issue and the impacts on, you know, all of the different areas on the planet. And she was featured in 8 Billion Angels, so you know, she could be a fun interview to have.
Dave Gardner 43:04
Cool.
Nandita Bajaj 43:05
I mean, we've talked about Louis Psihoyos. You know, he's done a couple of cool films, The Cove, Racing Extinction with Leilani Munter. And Leilani would be a cool one to have. And, you know, given that they've worked together, I'd love to know where Louis stands on this, you know, on the topic of overpopulation. Eileen Crist would be an incredible one.
Dave Gardner 43:32
Yeah.
Nandita Bajaj 43:33
You know, she co-edited the book Life On the Brink. She's a great overpopulation or sustainable population advocate. Yeah. And I was thinking, you know, Kimberly Nicholas and Seth Wynes. They, you know, came up with this beautiful graphic, and the Lund study that became so popular. Like their stuff is used everywhere. And it'd be fun to know, you know, as scientists, what is it like to become so popular overnight that all of the news channels were picking up their stories, and what does it feel to be famous as scientists?
Dave Gardner 44:13
Well, it's pretty good list. And I know it's, and those are just the highlights, right?
Nandita Bajaj 44:17
That's right. Yes.
Dave Gardner 44:19
Alright. One last question. And this is kind of gotta be an interesting one because you've already spoken to the joy of living simply. Tell us about the joy. What do you do for fun and recreation?
Nandita Bajaj 44:32
So my husband and my dog and I, we love going for hikes and looking for creative places to go hiking. I love creating enrichment activities for my little dog. We love playing escape rooms. I don't know if you if you've ever done one.
Dave Gardner 44:52
No.
Nandita Bajaj 44:53
If you haven't, we have to do one together. Those are really fun, puzzle-based physical rooms, but now they, you know, during the pandemic, they came up with more online rooms where you have to - you have an hour to get out of the room and solve a bunch of puzzles. We love doing that. And I'd say our most favorite thing to do is visiting and volunteering at animal sanctuaries. I got to do that at three different ones this year. One was a private one, one was a wildlife center with urban wildlife, and then the currently I'm working at a farmed animal sanctuary where they have sixty to seventy farmed animals that are, you know, revered for who they are. They get to live out their lives, you know, in peace and, and love and it's a beautiful place to be.
Dave Gardner 45:45
Sounds great. Well, it's been a pleasure to have this chance to get to know you a little better. Obviously, I've had a little bit of the inside track, because we've been plotting and planning and interviewing and transitioning for a couple of months now, plus the the internship. So it's been a real pleasure to get to know you, Nandita, even though it's hard for me as the outgoing Executive Director to let go. Gosh, if we hadn't found you, I don't know, you'd probably be having to pry World Population Balance out of my cold, dead hands. And you won't have to because I'm just so excited about what you bring to the table. So congratulations, and thanks for stepping up.
Nandita Bajaj 46:25
Thank you so much, Dave. And I'm excited that I continue to work with you, that that you in fact, aren't going anywhere. And you know, it's something that I've loved doing over the last six months, as you know, getting to co-host these podcasts with you and we continue to do that work together. So, thrilled to be here. Thank you for welcoming me.
Dave Gardner 46:45
It'll be a wild ride. Well, as we wrap up, you know, we do like to close with an inspirational quote.
Nandita Bajaj 46:52
Yeah, and I have a good one to share today. This one is from one of my favorite authors, Eileen Crist, from her latest book, Abundant Earth: Toward an Ecological Civilization. I like to envision human supremacy as a baton that's been handed forward for millennia, from the Neolithic village to classical antiquity to Judeo-Christian and Muslim cultures to our modern mechanistic era. By coming to understand this past, we can begin to understand that our current struggle isn't simply to expedite an energy transition to save some acres and wildlife here and there, or even to stave off the extinction of Homo sapiens. To put it accurately, our struggle is to change the course of history, to break with our history, to drop the baton.
Dave Gardner 47:45
Wow, I definitely want to say something about that because when you first started it, human supremacy just sort of jumped out at me. And I thought what? I mean, Crist thinks that we're supreme? So if anyone who's listening and they were riding their mountain bike uphill, and maybe paying more attention to the terrain than to what you just said, I want to make sure that they, you know, hit the rewind button and play that again. Because, I mean, Crist is saying we need to drop the baton. That's such a cool metaphor. It's time to stop passing that baton, huh?
Nandita Bajaj 48:19
She has a way with words, doesn't she? It's just, I was looking through quotes and one after another it's just poetic. But yeah, it's such an interesting way of looking at the work we need to be doing, is not to have these band-aid stop-gap measures to fix this one thing here and save, you know, a little bit of wildlife here. It really is to radically change our relationship to the planet, and to start to see ourselves as not the most important species to have ever lived on Earth. So, you know, and that's going to take a radical, drastic change in perspective.
Dave Gardner 48:57
Wow. Well, that just really puts a button on it. I've heard nothing but Republican Party talking points from you this entire podcast.
Nandita Bajaj 49:06
Thank you. There's an endorsement.
Dave Gardner 49:12
Well, on that note, that is it for this edition of the Overpopulation Podcast. Thanks, Nandita, for opening your heart and verifying that World Population Balance is in very good hands.
Nandita Bajaj 49:22
Thank you, Dave, for your heartfelt welcome. I am thrilled to be here. Visit worldpopulationbalance.org to learn more about how you can contribute to a sustainable population. At the website, you can sign the Sustainable Population Pledge, listen to all our podcasts, get on our email list, become a supporting member and make a donation to support our vital work.